#instantbird log on 03 06 2012

All times are UTC.

00:00:27 <aleth> Hopefully nobody will have to look at it again for a while :D
00:00:42 <clokep> It's OK, you own it now. :P
00:01:04 <aleth> The Linux bits maybe :P
00:01:31 <aleth> Btw, I forgot to mention last night, you said JSIRC uses a binaryOutputStream - it doesn't.
00:01:58 <aleth> Just in case that makes any difference...
00:02:39 <clokep> What does it use then? Hmm...
00:03:26 <aleth> Just a normal outputStream. 
00:03:39 <clokep> Hmmm.m...
00:04:16 <clokep> Ah, you're right. I was looking at the send binary data stream.
00:08:31 <aleth> Oh, he didn't check in 1303
00:10:33 <clokep> aleth: He asked me to add a comment.
00:10:39 * clokep will be back.
00:10:41 <aleth> Ah right.
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00:12:10 <BYK> Hola!
00:12:29 <BYK> Looking for help about translation repos
00:12:43 <aleth> Hi BYK 
00:12:51 <BYK> Hi aleth 
00:13:07 <BYK> I finally started translating IB to Turkish though I cannot push my changes
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00:13:27 <aleth> Sorry, I don't know anything about the localizations, hang on for a minute and clokep will be back (he might know) 
00:13:44 <BYK> Oh, okay =)
00:13:50 <BYK> It is about the HG repo actually
00:13:55 <BYK> Do you know about it?
00:14:24 <aleth> The main one? I don't think you push your own changes to that one
00:14:33 <BYK> Nope, not the main one
00:14:49 <BYK> I use https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/tr for pushing though it keeps telling me that the real URL is the "http" version and gives a 405
00:15:00 <BYK> teeling something about using POST for pushing
00:15:11 <aleth> Ah, then I don't know. Sorry. Thanks for doing the Turkish translation though! :)
00:15:23 <BYK> No problem and you're welcome :)
00:15:30 <BYK> Waiting for clokep then :)
00:15:34 <BYK> Hope he comes quickly :D
00:16:20 <BYK> aleth: One more question, non-technical
00:16:31 <BYK> aleth: Ready for it? :)
00:16:35 <aleth> Sure
00:17:01 <BYK> I have changed the sample dialog's people (it was Fabian and Dan)
00:17:10 <BYK> Is it rude to Fabian?
00:17:20 <aleth> I don't think he exists :D
00:17:24 <BYK> I mean am I being rude to Fabian :D
00:17:46 <aleth> Though I may be wrong, I haven't been contributing to IB for very long ;)
00:17:52 <BYK> aleth: Hahahaha :D there was an e-mail address with instantbird.com or similar so I thought he was one of the authors :D
00:18:14 <BYK> Ah it's Florian
00:18:15 <BYK> not Fabian
00:18:23 <aleth> He does exist :)
00:18:31 <BYK> aleth: That's good
00:18:40 <BYK> aleth: So the question remains then, is it rude or not
00:18:52 <BYK> aleth: First, I was using some generic Turkish name
00:19:04 <BYK> then thought "why not use my own name and a friend's name"
00:19:36 <aleth> You'll have to ask him, but personally I doubt it is rude. Why not localize the names...
00:20:07 <BYK> aleth: Alright =) What's his nick?
00:20:10 <aleth> He reads the logs, so he will see your question
00:20:15 <aleth> The nick is flo
00:20:24 <BYK> aleth: Ah, that I remember
00:20:33 <BYK> aleth: Great, thanks! =)
00:21:04 <BYK> Hey future Florian "flo", my e-mail is ben@byk.im so mail me when you read this :D
00:21:21 <clokep> BYK: Give me a couple of minutes.
00:21:28 <BYK> clokep: Take your time :)
00:35:58 <BYK> clokep: Any updates? :)
00:36:11 <clokep> BYK: I'm reading...
00:36:19 <clokep> BYK: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Translation/FAQ#What_does_the_error_.22abort:_HTTP_Error_405:_push_requires_POST_request.22_mean.3F
00:36:35 <BYK> clokep: Already checked that, I'm certain I use https
00:36:57 <clokep> BYK: Then I have no idea.
00:37:01 <BYK> C:\Users\BYK\Dropbox\Web Projects\instantbird-tr>hg push
00:37:02 <BYK> pushing to https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/tr
00:37:02 <BYK> real URL is http://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/tr/
00:37:02 <BYK> searching for changes
00:37:02 <BYK> abort: HTTP Error 405: push requires POST request
00:37:18 <BYK> I think there is some nasty http redirect happening there
00:37:47 <BYK> clokep: May be I don't have a valid account?
00:37:59 <BYK> clokep: Or missing some permissions
00:38:02 <clokep> It's possible. I can't check that.
00:38:15 <BYK> clokep: Hmm, who can?
00:38:16 <clokep> BYK: http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/100822/#m40
00:38:23 <clokep> Do you have a / at the end of the URL?
00:38:28 <clokep> No, you don't.
00:38:36 <clokep> (flo and Even can.)
00:38:53 <BYK> clokep: Ah come on
00:39:01 <BYK> clokep: Thanks for the help! :D
00:39:02 <clokep> Someone should add that to the wiki...
00:39:04 * clokep is about to eat dinner.
00:39:06 <clokep> You're welcome!
00:40:00 * BYK can sleep in peace now thanks to clokep 
00:40:30 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 869 to FIXED.
00:40:32 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Contacts window forgets screen position when closed
00:43:48 <aleth> BYK: Could you add the solution to the wiki? Thanks!
00:44:08 <BYK> aleth: Created my account and was just working on that :)
00:44:15 <aleth> Great :)
00:45:45 <BYK> aleth: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Translation/FAQ#What_does_the_error_.22abort:_HTTP_Error_405:_push_requires_POST_request.22_mean.3F
00:45:49 <BYK> what do you think?
00:46:08 <aleth> Looks good to me :)
00:47:27 <BYK> aleth: LGTM you say. Now I can safely sleep then =)
00:47:33 <BYK> (it is almost 3am)
00:47:52 <aleth> Achievement unlocked =)
00:48:06 <aleth> Good night!
00:51:30 <BYK> aleth: Bye!
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01:06:46 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1224 on bug 1303.
01:06:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC contacts don't get their status updated
01:07:04 <clokep> aleth: I carried your review forward, I hope that's OK. :)
01:07:17 <aleth> Of course :)
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01:20:26 <instant-buildbot> build #192 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/192
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01:40:40 <Mook_as> nit: that new wiki edit has two URLs that are the same (one is missing an ending slash)
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01:47:16 <instant-buildbot> build #213 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/213
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05:15:26 <instant-buildbot> build #504 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/504
06:53:14 <instant-buildbot> build #408 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/408
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09:11:15 <aleth> Even - the Linux build slave is not switched on? ;)
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10:16:39 <flo> apparently oauth tokens for the bigfiles thunderbird feature are going to be stored in the password manager rather than preferences (http://hg.mozilla.org/users/bienvenu_nventure.com/big-files/rev/bcb43178ca80)
10:16:44 <flo> I wonder if we need to make a similar change
10:23:12 <flo> Mook: I added the slash at the end of the URL.
10:24:11 <flo> BYK, aleth: it's not rude at all to replace the names in the preview conversation. The point of making them localizable was to ensure that localizers can replace the names that we used with names that sound good in their locale.
10:25:47 <aleth> Could bigfiles be useful for IB too for the file transfer / log sync stuff?
10:27:46 <flo> I hope so ;)
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11:00:19 <flo> http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/ 2139 update pings yesterday. Our best score in 2012.
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11:22:24 <flo> I don't see an easy way from our current JSON logs to find which contact was associated with a log file
11:24:32 <flo> well, I guess I need to open the file to get the first line
11:27:58 * clokep wonders what context this is in...
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11:28:57 <flo> (Thunderbird) when clicking on a gloda search result, I would like to display the conversation in the chat UI, and if possible offer to start a new conversation with the same contact
11:29:25 <clokep> fyi: I haven't crashed my lsat couple of restarts.
11:30:01 <flo> ah, that's a comment about my crash fix!
11:30:18 <clokep> Yes. :) You asked for feedback! :) I'm sometimes a day behind though...
11:30:23 <flo> I was first assuming you were saying something about the "Quit: Input/output error" when you restart
11:30:38 <clokep> No, but seems that that is still happening. :(
11:31:03 <flo> well, if I got rid of the top crasher that's already a good win :)
11:31:10 <clokep> Ah wait....
11:31:13 <flo> I just hope we will be able to fix the mac crasher too eventually
11:31:24 <clokep> The I/O error would only have ben on the newest nightly --> which I wasn't using...
11:31:27 <flo> clokep: you weren't on a nighty with the fix yet, right?
11:31:39 <clokep> Yeah, duh. :)
11:31:51 <clokep> Hopefully we can fix the top Mac crasher, yes!
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12:41:25 <BYK> Hola!
12:41:31 <BYK> flo: You there? :)
12:43:45 <BYK> Anyone with translation insight =)
12:44:46 <BYK> instantbot: help
12:44:49 <instantbot> BYK: help info /msg'ed
12:45:18 <BYK> instant-buildbot: help
12:45:18 <instant-buildbot> Get help on what? (try 'help <foo>', or 'commands' for a command list)
12:45:32 <BYK> instant-buildbot: help commands
12:45:32 <instant-buildbot> Usage: commands - List available commands
12:45:44 <BYK> instant-buildbot: commands
12:45:44 <instant-buildbot> buildbot commands: commands, dance, destroy, excited, force, hello, help, last, list, mute, notify, source, status, stop, unmute, version, watch
12:46:02 <BYK> instant-buildbot: dance
12:46:03 <instant-buildbot> <(^.^<)
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12:46:04 <instant-buildbot> <(^.^)>
12:46:05 <instant-buildbot> (>^.^)>
12:46:06 <instant-buildbot> (7^.^)7
12:46:07 <instant-buildbot> (>^.^<)
12:46:33 * BYK is hypnotised by the dance of instant-buildbot 
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13:06:06 <flo> BYK: you wanted to ask something? (hi! :))
13:06:56 <BYK> flo: Hi! Yes I have a few questions regarding translations
13:07:29 <BYK> #1 As you may have already seen from the logs, is it okay to change the sample conversation names in the messaging styles preview dialog?
13:07:47 <BYK> At first I was using a generic Turkish name then I thought why not use my name and a friend's name =)
13:08:00 <flo> ah, you haven't read the log ;)
13:08:09 <BYK> ah yeah =D
13:08:16 <BYK> okay I'll check it
13:08:19 <BYK> and the other thing is
13:08:30 <flo> http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today#m144
13:08:41 <BYK> what does <!ENTITY credit.translation do in credits.dtd?
13:08:55 <flo> isn't there a comment about it explaining?
13:09:33 <flo> it's to display the name of translators at the end of the list of names in the about dialog
13:09:39 <BYK> well it gives a sample having html in it
13:09:44 <BYK> which didn't make much sesnse for me
13:09:48 <BYK> since there is another place
13:10:06 <BYK> defines.inc where we list the contributors
13:10:20 <BYK> I edited both of them though not sure if it is correct or not
13:10:48 <flo> this one? http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/locales/en-US/defines.inc
13:11:13 <BYK> yeah that one has the list
13:11:23 <flo> I think this is only for .xpi language packs; it will be displayed in the add-on manager if the locale is installed as an add-on
13:11:45 <BYK> So writing something to this file: https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/fr/file/7f9aebbef778/instantbird/chrome/instantbird/credits.dtd 
13:11:56 <BYK> and defines.inc is the correct way to go?
13:12:18 <flo> well, the french file doesn't have any translator listed
13:13:05 <flo> there's a valid example at https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/it/file/tip/instantbird/chrome/instantbird/credits.dtd#l13
13:13:08 <BYK> Yeah but I don't know if the names are listed in the credits page or not
13:13:33 <BYK> Alright, I think I got it right then.
13:13:37 <flo> and another at https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/pl/file/tip/instantbird/chrome/instantbird/credits.dtd#l7 with 2 names listed
13:13:57 <BYK> Last question: it says I should receive an e-mail after I pushed the translations which I didn't. Is that normal?
13:14:06 <BYK> I see my commits though I don't have a build to test.
13:15:57 * BYK runs to lunch and will be back in tens of minutes
13:16:58 <flo> it's normal in the sense that we know it's broken. It's not normal in the sense that, well... it's broken :-/.
13:17:07 <flo> Our localization infrastructure is currently in poor shape
13:17:41 <flo> we will put it back in order at least a week or two before the next release, so you will have time to test your work and make adjustments. Don't worry :).
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13:28:26 <BYK> flo: Sound good, thanks!
13:31:03 <BYK> flo: Is this page acuurate then? http://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/locales-status.html#tr (I don't think so)
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13:36:15 <flo> "NaN% different" interesting :-S
13:37:06 <flo> I think it's outdated
13:37:45 <flo> another thing I'll need to fix when getting the l10n stuff back on track
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13:45:39 <BYK> flo: It's probably due to the errors
13:46:06 <flo> BYK: I think it compares with the en-US repository, which isn't updated these days
13:46:33 <BYK> flo: Ah, that makes sense since the AccountWizard file is only about 40 lines and it says error on line 209
13:46:38 <BYK> actualy it says error on 209
13:46:43 <BYK> so it may be something else
13:47:23 <BYK> okay so we have about 2 weeks to finish the translations you say, right?
13:48:05 <flo> I think it's a character count rather than line count
13:48:19 <flo> (and don't ask me why it does that; that sounds completely stupid :-D)
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13:48:54 <flo> BYK: you definitely miss a ">" at the end of https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/tr/file/tip/instantbird/chrome/instantbird/accountWizard.dtd#l23
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13:49:36 <BYK> flo: Ah dammit I do indeed. Thanks for pointing it out. Let me fix it and try again =)
13:50:04 <flo> there's probably a similar error in main.dtd
13:50:42 <BYK> no change in the status file :)
13:50:52 <BYK> flo: Checking right away
13:50:55 <flo> it's not updated immediately
13:51:26 <flo> what's supposed to provide the immediate feedback is the email you currently don't receive...
13:51:31 <BYK> flo: main.dtd seems fine
13:51:48 <flo> that status page is mostly to help us (developers) decide which translations are in a shippable state
13:51:48 <BYK> flo: Ah got it, missing quote
13:53:32 <BYK> flo: It does help me too =)
13:53:55 <BYK> flo: So it is actually pretty accurate. Already fixed the defines.inc encoding problem and now pushed it
13:53:58 <BYK> flo: Checking others
13:54:16 <flo> BYK: it's comparison with the en-US repository should be accurate
13:54:23 <flo> but the en-US repository is outdated
13:54:46 <flo> so if you reach a complete translation on that status page, what you will have translated will be almost Instantbird 1.1
13:54:58 <BYK> flo: The helping part is pointing out the erros =)
13:55:16 <BYK> flo: What do you mean by "almost" :D
13:55:24 <BYK> flo: We're engineers, gimme numbers
13:55:32 <flo> it's possible the l10n stuff broke down a week or two after the 1.1 release
13:55:48 <instantbot> New Core - IRC bug 1321 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
13:55:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1321 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Improve IRC DM convtop
13:55:56 <BYK> flo: Also, I don't think we even have a InstantBird 1.1 Turkish so it's also good enough for starters :)
13:55:57 <flo> it's definitely before the check-in from bug 759
13:56:02 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, florian, RESO FIXED, Reorganize purplexpcom
13:56:25 <flo> you don't have the strings related to the new XMPP implementations or the new IRC implementation
13:56:42 <BYK> flo: When or how can we get them?
13:56:56 <flo> you can get them from the code repository
13:56:59 <BYK> flo: Also I may be able to help fixing the translation system tohugh you have to guide me. I'm pretty fluent in PYthon an JS
13:57:12 <BYK> flo: I can also do some C stuff
13:57:33 <flo> https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/f9a59d766cfd/chat/locales/en-US
13:58:43 <flo> BYK: I think it broke down because the hacks I had in hg commit hooks to automatically hg convert the strings of both the application and the website stopped working for some reason
14:00:10 <BYK> flo: Then I have to see your hg hooks and learn hg hooks LOL
14:00:31 <BYK> flo: btw. should I put these new files in the root directory or what?
14:02:46 <BYK> flo: The old ones seem to be under purple?
14:05:16 <flo> under chat/
14:06:12 <BYK> flo: There is no such directory so I'm creating one under root
14:06:22 <BYK> flo: Warn me if it is not correct
14:09:36 <BYK> flo: The files you use for auto extraction are under tools/l10n right?
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14:21:10 <flo> BYK: what do you call "auto extraction"?
14:21:41 <BYK> I mean updating the locale files for translation?
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14:23:30 <flo> I still don't understand the question
14:23:44 <flo> update which files? where? when? :)
14:25:09 <clokep_work> flo: I think he means what scripts are used to update the locale files when we make commits, i.e. the hg hooks?
14:25:58 <flo> ah, then no, they are not commited in a repository
14:26:23 <flo> it's just a one line shell script calling hg convert between 2 repositories on the server
14:34:41 <clokep_work> Ah, I see.
14:35:29 <aleth> But there are plenty of other things he could help fix, right? :)
14:46:29 <flo> sure, with the skills he listed, he could touch anything in Instantbird :)
14:47:30 <BYK> flo, aleth, clokep_work: Thanks =)
14:47:58 <BYK> flo: I think there should be some kind of "merge" for new strings and files in locales. What do you think?
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15:14:28 <BYK> Anybody think there can be a serverless InstantBird Web?
15:15:13 <flo> "there should be some kind of "merge" for new strings and files in locales." are you somehow talking about compare-locales?
15:16:01 <flo> by the way, if you are a developer and not afraid of the command line, you can probably follow https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Creating_a_new_localization_%28Mercurial%29 to test your locale even though our l10n stuff on the servers doesn't work
15:16:28 <BYK> flo: May be. I signed-up for translation long ago though I couldn only start a few days ago. What I mean is I should be able to "pull" some changes from a central repository
15:16:36 <BYK> where I can get only the new strings
15:16:46 <BYK> Ideally this can be automated via an hg extension or similar
15:16:57 <flo> that's the en-US repository ;)
15:16:59 <BYK> since a direct merge is likely to give conflicts
15:17:01 <flo> the one that isn't updated these days
15:17:13 <BYK> so I can actually pull from it without conflicts?
15:17:15 <flo> hmm, well, no, I don't know what you are talking about
15:17:23 <BYK> I mean if the other locales are branches of it, I should be able
15:17:27 <BYK> **able to
15:17:44 <BYK> I mean think the en-US repo as an open source project like on github
15:17:49 <BYK> and all the translations are forks of it
15:17:51 <BYK> simple branches
15:18:05 <BYK> where each of them knows the exact commit they are branched from
15:18:18 <BYK> when you add new files or strings to the "original" repo
15:18:29 <BYK> the other actually can pull from it and merge without much problems
15:18:37 <BYK> Am I wrong?
15:18:49 <flo> there's no way to merge files that have nothing in common
15:19:06 <flo> (all the lines are different if the file is translated)
15:19:30 <BYK> yes but they originate from the same commit and the property names etc are the same
15:19:34 <BYK> and if they don't change
15:19:43 <BYK> then your current repo can merge only the new changes
15:19:47 <BYK> which would be the new files and strings
15:20:01 <BYK> git or hg should be able to correctly calculate that
15:22:25 <BYK> IT may be possible with a simple merge or a rebase, not sure
15:23:19 <flo> git/hg are really not tools for that
15:23:26 <flo> compare-locales is the tool that does these merges
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15:23:42 <flo> (it's how we generate the list of missing strings for the status report that you saw)
15:24:45 <BYK> flo: Then do you think it is possible for compare-locales to create a patch or even better a new commit automatically for each translation for the new strings so the non-techy translators can pull and get those without much furstration?
15:25:01 <flo> it's absolutely not wanted
15:25:04 <BYK> flo: I know due to the nature of the locale files, the translators should be somewhat techy :)
15:25:09 <BYK> flo: Not wanted? Why?
15:25:11 <flo> why would we put lots of en-US strings in localized repositories?
15:25:30 <BYK> You would put them if they don't exist already
15:25:34 <flo> that would make all the missing strings disappear from the report, and people would have to read the whole files by hand to find what they need to translate
15:25:55 <BYK> flo: Nope, you can check those missing ones with the originals and determine if they're translated or not
15:26:07 <flo> Let's stop this discussion here.
15:26:12 <BYK> flo: Okay =)
15:26:41 <BYK> flo: May be I don't know the system you use enough. I'll dig deeper ;)
15:33:53 <flo> jb pointed out that the list tags isn't sorted in the add buddy dialog, for no apparent reason.
15:34:20 <flo> anybody feeling like adding a .sort call around http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/addbuddy.js#69 ?
15:34:56 <flo> I think it should use localeCompare, like http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/blist.js#732
15:35:39 <flo> err http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/blist.js#185 should use localeCompare too :(
15:37:03 <flo> and http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/blist.js#756 too :(
15:37:53 * flo files a bug
15:40:25 <BYK> flo: "Tags" used as "groups" in some places and "tags" in some other places. What is the correct usage? I'll translate accordingly
15:41:12 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1322 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
15:41:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1322 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Tags should be sorted using localeCompare
15:41:32 <flo> where is "groups" used in the UI?
15:43:36 <BYK> flo: I saw it in the translations
15:44:01 <BYK> I think I should make all of them tags
15:45:37 <BYK> flo: Found it!
15:45:39 <flo> the only use of "group" in the en-US strings that I can find in instantbird/ is "Contacts that have no visible tag will be displayed in the 'Other Contacts' special group at the bottom of the list."
15:45:44 <flo> and it seems fine in that case
15:45:47 <BYK> in the "add buddy" dialog
15:46:13 <BYK> I'm using version 1.2a1pre (20120224041829)
15:46:30 <BYK> And the original was like that in the translation strings
15:46:32 <BYK> addbuddy.dtd
15:46:45 <flo> ah, I searched for "group", not "Group" :-D
15:46:56 <BYK> CaSeSenSiTive :D
15:47:23 <BYK> So should I change it to tag or leave as group?
15:47:23 <flo> yeah, "instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/addbuddy.dtd:4:<!ENTITY tag.label                      "Group">
15:47:24 <flo> " should say "Tag"
15:47:31 <BYK> Got it, on it
15:51:51 <BYK> Fixed for TR
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16:11:53 <BYK> So we were talking about me saying the current translation system makes things harder for non-techies
16:12:12 <BYK> And flo said there are some very non-techy translators(which is good and may proove me wrong :))
16:12:48 <BYK> Though think about my mother or some other friend who have no idea of what a version control system or "entities" and syntax errors mean.
16:12:54 <flo> I guess it depends on what you "non-techy" threshold is. But I think most of our translators never touch the command line (or don't even know what it is).
16:13:08 <flo> *your
16:13:15 <BYK> Oh, it's not about the command line. I don't touch it either while translating :)
16:14:04 <BYK> I mean if there was a s,mple web interface or a program dedicated for translation which was taking away all this "commit, push, be careful with the quotes and brackets" stuff
16:14:11 <BYK> it would be easier for everyone to contribute
16:16:08 <flo> right
16:16:22 <flo> I've never been convinced by the web tools I saw for that
16:16:50 <flo> lots of such tools have been created, but they are often only used by they authors :(
16:16:57 <flo> *their
16:17:00 <BYK> Well, if you take it one step further and implement a mock interface on the web, than people can actually see where they are changing, what about that? :)
16:17:22 <flo> who's volunteering to work on that?
16:17:39 <BYK> I should check the existing projects on this and come back later :) I may colunteer :)
16:17:41 <BYK> **volunteer
16:17:48 <flo> I think finding developers with free time AND motivation is harder than finding translators who can understand what an entity is
16:18:22 <BYK> Free time is crucial, motivation can be arranged. Sometimes you have lots and sometimes you don't have any
16:18:47 <flo> + if translators are really completely clueless about computer related stuff; how can we assume they will make a consistent translation if we aren't sure they understand all the concepts behind IM?
16:19:15 <BYK> I have lots of friends who know almost nothing about computers though they know how to use MSN
16:19:28 <BYK> And if you make them feel that this is "their" software
16:19:37 <BYK> you can gain some allies
16:19:53 <BYK> and translation is sometimes like an entry point for contributions
16:20:44 <flo> translation is a great entry point for technical contributors actually
16:21:04 <flo> but I don't think that's the point you wanted to make :)
16:21:08 <BYK> flo: That's right too and I, myself, is a fair example of that :)
16:21:28 <flo> what's the motivation for translating the software?
16:22:00 <flo> I think it's mostly "I love this software because <insert some random technical reasons>, and I'm so sad I can't share it with my friends because it's not available in <native language>."
16:22:01 <BYK> flo: Make it available for non-techy Turkish people since the techy ones already know English and generally prefer English versions
16:22:15 <BYK> flo: Very similar :)
16:22:40 <BYK> Well I have this "obsession" may be after seeing the easiness of the translation system in Facebook. That may be the reason for my thoughts, I don't know
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18:02:33 <Mic|web> Hi
18:02:39 <Mook_as> Hi
18:03:06 <aleth> Hi
18:04:24 <clokep_work> Hi
18:44:06 <Mic|web> Now let's see if that works again;)
18:44:08 <Mic|web> bye!
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18:45:27 <clokep_work> bye!
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19:34:06 <aleth> Someone needs to reboot the linux buildslave...
19:34:08 <aleth> Even?
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20:37:44 <Mic> I just crashed four or five times in a row when connecting to IRC :S
20:38:02 <Mic> And only one time the crash reporter appeared.
20:38:10 <flo> that's bad :-/
20:39:35 <Mic> http://crash-stats.instantbird.com/report/index/7458761d-6d81-417c-8044-bb9862120306
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20:40:22 <flo> Mic: seems like a crash in your video driver
20:40:35 <Mic> No, it's an audio driver as far as I can tell
20:40:35 <flo> does it also happen with graphic acceleration disabled (or in Safe Mode)?
20:41:12 <flo> then, does it crash with the sounds disabled? :)
20:41:16 <Mic> I'll start to worry if I'll see it again on another day
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20:47:07 <Mic> hmm, if we're in dire need of attention of people reading PMO, we could consider posting something religious on our blog ;)
20:48:11 <Mic> Gerv certainly got his fair share of attention today ;)
20:49:14 <flo> "God does NOT exist." ? :-P
20:49:59 <Mic> "God does NOT exist  ... and now that we got your attention: anyone interested in implementing Sync for us?"
20:50:20 <flo> wait
20:50:28 <flo> God could help us have an android version maybe? :)
20:52:48 <flo> I'm surprised so many people had time to waste by trolling on Gerv's post though. Is there really nothing more useful they could have done today?
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21:22:57 <aleth> When creating a new XMPP account, there is a default domain set in the account wizard: gmail.com :-S
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21:28:39 <Mic> hmm, a bluescreen, maybe I really should start to worry ..
21:31:55 <aleth> Sounds like it might be more than just an IB crash? :-/
21:32:34 <Mic> Maybe... I guess I'm still lucky. It was the first bluescreen in like .. two years?
21:33:14 <flo> haven't they changed the color?
21:36:47 <Mic> Only slightly as it seems;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BSoD_in_Windows_8.png 
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21:40:31 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1323 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
21:40:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, XMPP default domain should be blank
21:41:08 <aleth> Mic: Oh, it's no longer text mode? Or is there a bluescreen for when the bluescreen crashes...?
21:42:38 <Mic> No idea
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21:51:51 <Mic> bye
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22:12:14 <aleth> I don't quite understand bug 206: Is it really the case that two grouped buddies that have the same account type don't both get displayed? 
22:12:17 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206 nor, --, 1.0, nobody, NEW, Same Screename from multiple accounts are not shown
22:14:16 <aleth> There is a bug somewhere in the conversation target selector code: I get a dropdown menu (and "click to change" tooltip) for non-grouped contacts (XMPP or MSN) as well. Is this also a known bug?
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22:34:12 <flo> aleth: if you have the same buddy in the buddy lists of 2 different accounts of the same protocol, you can't select which account will be used
22:34:45 <flo> I've never been able to come up with a UI for this edge case that doesn't suck most of the time :)
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22:37:02 <aleth> flo: I still don't really follow. Why not just display two buddies under the contact (with the same protocol icon), and then the user can distinguish by the tooltip when/if he cares? Is it some limitation of the way the grouping code works?
22:37:25 <flo> it's the same buddy
22:37:34 <flo> if the user's account that is different
22:38:57 <flo> and the reason for not showing a line in the tooltip for each account buddy is that if you have 5 AIM accounts and your contacts also has 5 AIM accounts, just for AIM you have 25 account buddies, and selecting through that would be a complete mess
22:39:59 <aleth> OK, I get it now.
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22:41:40 <aleth> I still think it would be useful to have feedback in the tooltip for which account I am having the conversation with, even if I then can't change it. But I get the logic.
22:41:42 <clokep> aleth: Why do you feel the default server should be blank for XMPP?
22:42:07 <aleth> clokep: If you want gtalk, you'll have clicked on gtalk, not XMPP, right?
22:42:31 <clokep> What do you suggest using as the default server then? :P
22:42:32 <aleth> Maybe it shouldn't be blank, but gmail seems wrong to me
22:42:36 <clokep> I think they should be something.
22:42:44 <clokep> OK.
22:42:59 <clokep> (I did ask why you think it should be blank! Not why you think it shouldn't be gtalk. :))
22:43:21 <flo> jabber.org ?
22:43:31 <flo> I think that's what libpurple had before we replaced it with gmail
22:44:39 <aleth> Or we could find a decent server that is happy to have occasional new users from IB...
22:45:03 <aleth> Or you could ask the XMPP guru you talked to at Fosdem (I think it was) what he would suggest?
22:46:37 <flo> isn't jabber.org decent?
22:46:43 <aleth> I have no idea
22:46:47 <aleth> Probably it is
22:46:54 <clokep> Yes.
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22:47:19 <aleth> Let's use that then :)
22:47:32 <clokep> write a patch. :P
22:47:56 <flo> the imILogger interface sucks :(
22:48:04 <flo> clokep: or rather, revert the libpurple patch we have ;)
22:48:56 <flo> ah, ok there was no default in libpurple
22:49:02 <flo> we currently have this patch against libpurple: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/16661
22:50:55 <clokep> I see
22:51:02 <clokep> .Sorry that interface sucks. :( Redesign it?
22:51:36 <flo> I'm trying to get the list of "similar logs" for a log I have
22:52:05 <flo> so I have a conversation (imILogConversation) that I got from the log (imILog).
22:52:21 <flo> I would like to be able to call one of the getLogsFor<something> methods of imILogger
22:52:48 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1324 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
22:52:48 <flo> the closest to what I want is getLogsForConversation, but... it takes a prplIConversation, which imILogConversation doesn't implement!
22:52:50 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1324 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Account target selector does not always recognize when a  buddy has no alternative protocols
22:53:07 <clokep> :(
22:53:15 * aleth dislikes days where you file more bugs than fix
22:53:53 <flo> aleth: if you dislike all days, you dislike life :-P
22:54:17 <aleth> That's a pessimistic view of the number of bugs :P
22:54:23 <flo> aleth: although my solution to that problem is: I never file bugs, I complain about them and let others file them for me :-P
22:54:53 <flo> (I'm lying though, I filed the bug about sorting tags :))
22:55:56 <aleth> I find it helpful to file a bug before fixing something (even something trivial) that shouldnt be fixed for some reason (eg the tooltip thing)...
23:01:00 <flo> can I add a getSimilarLogs method to imILogger?
23:01:04 <flo> or is that too stupid
23:03:11 <clokep> flo: It's not stupid if it's implemented.
23:03:24 <flo> well, if I don't implement it, my problem isn't fixed ;)
23:03:38 <clokep> Just define what "similar" is. :)
23:03:51 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1226 on bug 1323.
23:03:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, XMPP default domain should not be gmail.com
23:04:10 <flo> clokep: whatever crap lives in the same folder :-P
23:04:50 <aleth> SiblingLogs? ;)
23:05:22 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1226 on bug 1323.
23:06:20 <flo> :)
23:07:01 * flo thinks clokep needs commit access :-S
23:08:51 <clokep> Only if you trust me not to mess things up. :P
23:09:05 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1227 on bug 1323.
23:09:07 <flo> if I have someone to blame it's ok :-P
23:09:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, XMPP default domain should not be gmail.com
23:09:26 <Mook_as> pfft, it's a version control system, it's designed to let people mess up (and get backed out) :p
23:09:44 <flo> Mook_as: yeah...
23:10:04 <flo> it's just a little bit scary when what we mess up is the whole user base of the nightly builds
23:11:08 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm granted review for attachment 1227 on bug 1323.
23:11:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, XMPP default domain should not be gmail.com
23:11:49 <flo> "It's one of those files with a different tab rule from most of IB." you mean it's libpurple ;)
23:11:49 <aleth> clokep: Carried your review forward, as it's just a whitespace change.
23:12:27 <aleth> flo: Yes. I was being optimistic as to what constitutes "most" ;)
23:12:43 <clokep> aleth: OK I'll look back over it...
23:12:50 <flo> my editor detects the indent style of the file and adapts itself automatically :)
23:13:17 <clokep> :)
23:13:20 <clokep> Mine mostly does that.
23:13:30 <clokep> I can thank Mook for that. :P
23:13:37 <aleth> So does mine. When I haven't overridden it for some reason...
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23:18:03 <flo> clokep: now it's implemented: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/16664
23:18:38 <flo> (the diff is reversed)
23:19:48 <aleth> Didn't viewlog.js do something like that already? (i.e. should something be removed there now for consistency)
23:19:53 <clokep> flo: Seems easy. :)
23:20:17 <flo> I don't think so.
23:20:38 <flo> it does some funny business with the path to create an URL to pass it to the browser for plain text logs
23:21:49 <flo> bah, it works!
23:21:52 <flo> almost too good to be true :)
23:30:16 <clokep> flo: Not sure if you reviewed anything today, but I have two IRC patches that I think are easy / ready to go.
23:30:46 <clokep> (bug 1303 and bug bug 1320)
23:30:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC contacts don't get their status updated
23:30:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1320 tri, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The CTCP time response is calling the wrong property when localizing
23:30:53 <flo> I spent all my coding time on Thunderbird UI stuff
23:31:09 <flo> I'm trying to "finish" it asap to at least include all the localizable strings it will need
23:33:15 <clokep> Ah, OK! :)
23:33:17 <clokep> Understood.
23:39:52 <flo> re bug 1303, why is that code setting the buddy status to unknown so complicated?
23:39:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC contacts don't get their status updated
23:40:18 <flo> what's the problem with for each (let buddy in this._buddies)\nbuddy.setStatus(...) ?
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23:40:59 <mr_boo> Hello
23:41:14 <aleth> flo: That's pretty much the patch I had ;)
23:41:35 <flo> and even if the call to getBuddyNames made sense, what makes you think buddy can suddently become null?
23:41:36 <clokep> I was hesitant to touch the _buddies array directly
23:41:37 <aleth> clokep would like to use the built-in methods to access the buddies
23:41:40 <mr_boo> :O
23:41:44 <clokep> Hello mr_boo 
23:41:56 <mr_boo> hows agoing
23:42:21 <clokep> But I'm OK changing it if you'd like.
23:44:27 <flo> yes please :)
23:46:10 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 1222 on bug 1320.
23:46:12 <flo> ok, this one is really trivial :)
23:46:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1320 tri, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The CTCP time response is calling the wrong property when localizing
23:46:21 <clokep> Yup! :)
23:46:24 <mr_boo> 3hows everyone feeling today ;)
23:47:05 <flo> mr_boo: do you have something useful to ask?
23:48:04 <mr_boo> 3nope
23:49:10 <mr_boo> 3anyone here a female
23:49:40 <clokep> mr_boo: This is a chat for things to do with support or development of Instantbird.
23:49:49 <clokep> Other topics of conversation aren't wanted.
23:50:17 <mr_boo> 3we need more smilies
23:50:41 <-- flo has kicked mr_boo from #instantbird
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23:51:47 <mr_boo> 3i like the idea of and translation bar 
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23:53:18 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1228 on bug 1303.
23:53:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC contacts don't get their status updated
23:54:15 <flo> bah, I dislike things that don't work the first time, but work during all the subsequent tries
23:54:21 <flo> I need to restart Thunderbird for each test :(
23:56:11 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 1228 on bug 1303.
23:56:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC contacts don't get their status updated
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23:56:44 <clokep> Yes, restarting for every test is annoying...
23:56:53 <clokep> As is rebuilding for every test. ;)
23:57:25 <flo> restarting means rebuilding in my case
23:57:51 <flo> as I tend to run my debug build in a while true; rebuild; execute; loop :)
23:58:34 <aleth> I hope it builds quickly ;)
23:58:45 <flo> not as quickly as I would like ;)
23:58:51 <flo> but my macbook is getting old
23:59:43 <flo> it's the 2008 model...