#instantbird log on 09 20 2011

All times are UTC.

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03:34:59 <Mook> odd, did I forget to file the bug about the accounts window popping up? I should do so now...
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04:14:19 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1046 filed by mook.moz+bugs.instantbird@gmail.com.
04:14:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1046 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Account window shows up on disconnect/reconnect
04:15:56 <Mook> the bug I thought I already filed, and had to disconnect to nail down the current behaviour of, yes.
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08:38:58 <Yoric> hi
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12:40:22 <Yoric> Hi
12:40:34 <Yoric> Should I place feature requests here or on bugzilla?
12:46:17 <lewellyn> Yoric: bugzilla is probably better so they can be tracked and not forgotten as easily :)
12:46:21 <Yoric> :)
12:46:30 <Yoric> Is there an InstantBird project on bugzilla?
12:47:06 <lewellyn> i don't think you asked what you meant to ask... ;)
12:47:07 <lewellyn> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/
12:47:31 <clokep_work> Yoric: You can feel free to discuss things here too though if you'd like to flesh an idea out more, etc.
12:47:37 <clokep_work> (Also please search before filing bugs!) :)
12:48:33 <Yoric> Well, I have some issues with reconnecting when my computer leaves sleep.
12:48:50 <Yoric> And I would like to be able to throttle updates to my Twitter account, so it doesn't distract me quite as much :)
12:49:04 <lewellyn> twitter is evil ;)
12:52:21 <clokep_work> "throttle"? We're using user streams so it's constantly updating whenever people tweet, etc. (Theoretically.)
12:52:43 <clokep_work> Yoric: The reconnecting is probably filed already, the other one is not.
12:53:17 <clokep_work> But I can't find it. :) So feel free to file both!
12:53:21 <clokep_work> (As separate bugs, please. :))
12:53:36 <Yoric> :)
12:54:06 <Yoric> clokep_work: that's the point, I don't want my tab to turn red every half-second, once per 5 minutes is sufficient :)
13:04:35 <lewellyn> no it's not :)
13:05:01 <lewellyn> you must have instant notification that someone just checked into starbucks via 4sq!
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13:07:58 <Yoric> And, actually, it might be an interesting global setting (or for an extension?): "don't annoy me too often".
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13:10:17 <clokep_work> Yoric: Sounds more like an extension to me, but file it anyway. :) In the nightly builds there's a feature to "hide" conversations, which sends them to the buddy list, although it's not what you ask for, it might be a solution.
13:12:08 <clokep_work> There definitely should be a way to focus yourself more and ignore lower priority conversations though.
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13:36:16 * flo wonders if hiding the twitter conversation wouldn't be enough for what Yoric wants.
13:36:22 <flo> Yoric: hello :)
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13:46:58 <Yoric> hi :)
13:49:19 <flo> Yoric: if you don't want to have that twitter stream catch your attention all the time by turning red, would you like to just close that tab, and have the twitter conversation sit in your contacts window, with an indication of the unread message count?
13:49:37 <Yoric> Yes, that would be quite fine.
13:49:47 <Yoric> (at least in principle)
13:50:00 <flo> are you on a nightly build?
13:50:10 <Yoric> No, but I could move on one. Does it auto update?
13:50:18 <flo> yes, (almost) everyday
13:50:27 <Yoric> Ok, installing it now.
13:50:35 <flo> Yoric: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/
13:51:35 * Yoric will be right back.
13:51:37 <Yoric> (hopefully)
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13:53:00 <Yoric> I'm back.
13:54:00 <Yoric> Now, what should I do to hide my Twitter?
13:54:01 <flo> then in about:config (accessible from "Config Editor" in the Advanced tab of the pref window), you need to set messenger.conversations.alwaysClose to false.
13:54:22 <clokep_work> Hmmm....you can give default values in functions according to http://taliabale.tumblr.com/post/10432503399/the-future-of-javascript-is-here-approved-for
13:54:49 <Yoric> flo: done
13:55:47 <Yoric> My twitter is now quietly sitting on the Contacts window.
13:56:06 <flo> now when closing a tab for a multi user chat (that includes IRC channels and the twitter timeline) or a private conversation with unread messages, instead of closing the conversation, it will just close the tab and put the conversation in the Contacts window
13:56:08 <Yoric> I'll see how it works from this point.
13:56:35 <Yoric> And if it works well, I might just start annoying you for RSS support :)
13:56:57 <flo> ah, I thought you wanted it to be improved in Thunderbird :)
13:57:09 <Yoric> I'll have to find out which one is best :)
13:57:23 <Yoric> (for the specific scenario I have in mind, that is)
13:57:54 <Yoric> Now, back to benchmarking [Firefox] Nightly.
13:58:26 <flo> Have fun :)
13:59:06 <flo> clokep_work: hmm, does that actually work with the current JS engine? :)
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14:01:13 <clokep_work> flo: I think so! That's what that post implies...but maybe not, maybe it was just approved for inclusion in the next ECMA or whtaever.
14:01:40 * clokep_work votes no for RSS support btw. ;)
14:01:51 <flo> the post says "*Most* of these features already work in Firefox."
14:02:06 <flo> ah? I would take a JS proto for it ;).
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14:05:08 <clokep_work> I'd be OK w/ it in an extension...but it's just so unrelated in my mind...
14:07:09 <flo> it's a twitter timeline, but the list of friends/subscriptions is stored locally rather than on the server
14:07:26 <flo> but yeah, I thought as an add-on
14:07:55 <flo> or that list could even be stored in the server, if you want to make a Google Reader js-proto ^^
14:09:33 <lewellyn> there are many twitter-alikes (and twitter itself) that publish rss feeds
14:10:02 <lewellyn> it's for the "pully" folks :)
14:10:09 <clokep_work> My problem is that it's "one way", i.e. readonly.
14:10:15 <clokep_work> So it's not really instant messaging.
14:11:36 <lewellyn> many people use twitter and irc that way, too, though.
14:13:24 <clokep_work> : shrugs : not worth arguing over. I just don't see the point of it (just like some people ask for like IMAP or POP support in IM clients, it just makes no sense to me at all, it's a different concept to me)
14:13:58 <lewellyn> imap and pop are hard to get even reasonably right in a full-fledged mail client
14:14:20 <lewellyn> (and pop needs to diaf. 10 years ago.)
14:15:08 <lewellyn> and, i agree, i don't see much point in rss in an im client. but i can see use cases for people to wish for it. *shrug*
14:16:42 <flo> I wouldn't be against IMAP/POP either
14:16:58 <clokep_work> I mean I could see that it would work...I just don't see the reason for it, there's much better ways to receive that information.
14:17:03 <flo> the protocol is not really relevant, it's a technical detail. What matters is what people do with it.
14:17:48 <flo> I remember a time when I saw people exchange emails through gmail (before they launched Google Talk) because it was just more instant (~1s) than MSN (which sometimes took ~1 minutes to deliver an IM)
14:17:50 <clokep_work> I agree that it's a technical detail, but I think it still needs to fit into an instant messaging paradigm of some sort.
14:18:44 <flo> clokep_work: the "instant messaging" paradigm here is to receive these messages in almost real time
14:19:18 <clokep_work> IMAP/POP/RSS are not real time. :-/
14:19:42 <clokep_work> (IMAP might have an extension which supports more real-timish activities, but POP/RSS involve polling if I remember properly.)
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14:20:13 <clokep_work> Anyway, I think we should worry about getting Twitter to work better (and IRC/XMPP in JS) first before adding more protocols to support. :-D
14:20:15 <flo> sure. It's an "every 5 minutes" real time ;).
14:21:04 <clokep_work> As long as we're on the same page. :)
14:21:55 <flo> I believe Digsby users are likely to request that we handle emails ;)
14:22:55 * clokep_work will point them to Thunderbird. :P
14:23:33 <flo> if it ever supports IM they won't need Instantbird anymore then ;)
14:24:42 <clokep_work> It shouldn't. ;)
14:25:06 <clokep_work> I like the concept of them (== email & im) programs communicating, but combing them together I dislike.
14:25:44 <clokep_work> So in terms of doing an updating screenshot for a blog post...we can do it in just one OS, right? It doesn't need to be done in all of them?
14:26:22 <flo> sure
14:27:10 <clokep_work> Alright, just making sure. :)
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14:40:34 <Yoric> flo: after a few minutes of testing hidden conversations, I like it a lot.
14:40:44 <flo> great :)
14:41:05 <flo> are you annoyed by the NickServ and sand.mozilla.org tabs?
14:46:45 <clokep_work> I'm annoyed by MemoServ that keeps popping up, but that's my own issue. ;)
14:47:09 <flo> I'm sure you know how to write the code to make it shut up ;)
14:50:05 <clokep_work> Or I could just read my memos. :-D
14:50:53 <flo> I still need an idea for an add-on to silence out ChanServ and put the welcome message into the channel's tab
14:51:16 <clokep_work> "need an idea"? Sounds like you have an idea. :-/
14:51:31 <flo> an idea of how the code could be written :-D
14:51:32 * clokep_work is now known as clokep_away
14:51:42 <clokep_away> Ah, I see. :)
14:52:23 <flo> hmm, or maybe just a system message in the UI conversation. It won't be logged, but the ChanServ conversation will be, anyway :-S
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16:05:11 <Yoric> How do I follow someone on Twitter from InstantBird?
16:05:51 <flo> Yoric: either right click a tweet from that person and click "follow <name>" in the context menu
16:06:00 <flo> or use the file->add Buddy menuitem of the contact list
16:06:10 <flo> (assuming you have a recent nightly, which I'm almost sure is the case :))
16:06:12 <Yoric> Thanks
16:06:14 <Yoric> :)
16:06:25 <flo> Instantbird 1.0 can't do that ;)
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16:15:32 <FeuerFliege> flo: but typing “follow @<name>” won‘t work, right?
16:15:55 <flo> FeuerFliege: it will just tweet that message
16:16:26 <flo> do you think people would expect that to do something special?
16:16:47 <flo> I would certainly accept a patch for adding a /follow <name> command (and /unfollow) by the way
16:18:06 <FeuerFliege> Well I think it wouldn’t hurt if instantbird offers the commands that work in mobile phones.
16:18:35 <FeuerFliege> Typing RT @<name> already works.
16:18:43 <flo> does it?
16:19:20 <flo> if it does, it's handled by the twitter servers without us doing anything about it
16:19:45 <FeuerFliege> ah, ok.
16:20:07 <FeuerFliege> I will try it out.
16:22:23 <FeuerFliege> unfollow @instantbird
16:22:42 <FeuerFliege> ups, wrong tab 
16:23:01 <flo> I'm almost sure it won't work on IRC ;)
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16:25:05 <FeuerFliege> ok RT, follow, unfollow are working.
16:25:25 <FeuerFliege> not jet sure about on/off and on/off <name>
16:25:40 <FeuerFliege> GET and FAV don’t work
16:31:49 <flo> "18:31:16 - An error (Invalid / expired Token) occurred while sending: follow instantbird" uh
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16:32:19 <flo> It seems something is screwed up on my twitter test account :-S
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16:55:20 <FeuerFliege> flo: WFM both "follow instantbird" and "follow @instantbird"
16:55:28 <flo> ok
16:55:31 <flo> good to know
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17:00:59 <FeuerFliege> flo: you have no luck with twitter, hu? the https links didn’t work for you either.
17:01:43 <flo> I have no luck with anything that involves a computer ;).
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17:13:35 <FeuerFliege> re bug 1045: do you think it would be better to change not only  # to %23 but  also https to the non-encrypted http?
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17:13:43 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird (http://www.instantbird.com) here|Get Instantbird 1.0 while it's hot! :) |News: http://blog.instantbird.org/ |Nightlies: http://nightly.instantbird.im/ (testing purpose only) |IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/ |Pastebin: http://pastebin.instantbird.org/"
17:13:44 * ChanServ sets mode +v instantbot 
17:14:11 <FeuerFliege> oh, instantbird doesn’t like my bug.
17:14:25 <flo> no :)
17:14:35 <flo> the https issue is probably something broken on my firefox profile
17:15:32 <FeuerFliege> ok
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17:20:39 <instantbot> do.not.deliver@gmx.de added attachment 836 to bug 1045.
17:20:46 --> instantbot has joined #instantbird
17:20:46 topic changed by concrete.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird (http://www.instantbird.com) here|Get Instantbird 1.0 while it's hot! :) |News: http://blog.instantbird.org/ |Nightlies: http://nightly.instantbird.im/ (testing purpose only) |IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/ |Pastebin: http://pastebin.instantbird.org/"
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17:22:45 <flo> instantbot should stop that silly behavior ;)
17:22:48 <instantbot> flo: Sorry, I've no idea what 'should stop that silly behavior ;)' might be.
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18:39:55 <flo> lewellyn: do you know if you are going to work on that libqq update soon? (or if we should find someone else to do it and/or drop it from the 1.1-wanted list?)
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19:01:32 <clokep_away> Yes, the twitter follow/unfollow stuff should work, I'm glad it does. :) I think I'd like a /follow /unfollow commands too (especially so they show up in help!)
19:02:13 <flo> file a bug? (or patch it) :)
19:02:18 <flo> most likely trivial to implement
19:02:37 <clokep_away> Yeah , I'll follow a bug in a bit.
19:03:13 <flo> bug 851
19:03:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=851 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Twitter commands
19:04:11 <flo> I don't see how a /rt command would work (it needs a message id, which I can't imagine a user typing)
19:04:30 <clokep_away> Retweets the last tweet you received? ;)
19:04:34 <Mook_as> last message (optionally form a given user)?
19:04:35 <clokep_away> (That sounds like a terrible UX haha.)
19:04:38 <Mook_as> s/form/from/
19:04:44 <clokep_away> Ah, that's a better idea Mook! :)
19:04:49 <flo> what if a tweet appears just when you are pressing enter?
19:04:51 <Mook_as> and then a new one comes in just before you press enter, so you RT the wrong one!
19:05:06 <flo> same idea
19:05:09 <flo> r- :-P
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19:45:33 <flo> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/965 does this look correct for an add-on to hide auto-joined conversations by default?
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19:49:40 <clokep_away> I think so, it could use some comments though. :P
19:49:45 <clokep_away> That map just removes the source, right?
19:50:28 <flo> it removes the alias
19:52:40 <clokep_away> OK.
19:53:19 <flo> I hate the way auto-join / conversation names don't match, but I assume you already know that ;)
19:53:21 <clokep_away> Might be a good example to put in the add-ons repository. :)
19:53:36 <clokep_away> Yes, I assumed that already. :)
19:53:45 <clokep_away> It seems reasonable but pretty gross.
19:53:47 <flo> I coded it there.
19:53:59 <flo> NickServKiller too
19:54:18 <flo> I'm just not sure I'll push them now, as I may want to change the API of the interruption manager
19:54:48 <clokep_away> Ah-ha. :)
19:57:45 <flo> the two problems with the current API are: a listener can't override the decision of another listener (= it's just possible for them to block something, not to decide to allow anyway in spite of what other listeners thought), and it's not possible to associate a priority with listeners
19:58:10 <flo> (a priority is useless as long as listener can only block in a way that can't be overridden)
19:58:31 <flo> I'm not sure if I should fix it or not. It would make the API more powerful, but also more complicated.
19:58:42 <flo> I'm not sure if there are real use cases for "allow anyway"
19:59:27 <flo> I guess one could imagine an "allow all interruptions from my boss (or girlfriend?)" even when other add-ons attempted to block them.
20:01:05 <clokep_away> Right. :-/ I always hate that though because if you have a priority...it implies needing to know the priorities of eother listeners and having a "higher" priority.
20:01:13 <clokep_away> (However "higher" is defined.)
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20:02:30 <flo> I guess add-on authors would have to watch each other and heuristically determine a value that gives the result they want :-D
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20:05:37 <Mic|web> The object (aSubject) needs to fit to the particular type of interruptions you're requesting, doesn't it?
20:06:15 <flo> Mic|web: I don't understand the question, but the answer is likely "yes".
20:06:36 <Mic|web> That is I can't request a "notification" with Buddy Status since I don't have a message object that this thing seems to expect judging from the code I saw in ibNotifications.jsm
20:07:18 <clokep_away> Bye.
20:07:23 <Mic|web> bye, clokep
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20:08:27 <Mic|web> Did that help to explain the problem I thought I saw in any way? :S
20:08:54 <flo> https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/9f0cbd55209c#l3.54
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20:10:52 <Mic|web> http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/9f0cbd55209c/instantbird/modules/ibNotifications.jsm#l117
20:11:21 <flo> aTopic, aSubject
20:11:26 <Mic|web> aSubject is a .. purpleIMessage (?) there
20:11:35 <flo> yes
20:11:49 <flo> https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/9f0cbd55209c#l3.59
20:11:59 <Mic|web> That is .. the listeners should all expect to treat purpleIMessage when listening to "notification" interruptions?
20:12:06 <flo> no
20:12:10 <Mic|web> Ah!
20:12:17 <flo> when having a new-text topic
20:12:18 <Mic|web> Good to know :)
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20:13:48 <flo> it's not complicated: if you are doing something that could interrupt the user upon receiving a notification, you give request the interruption with the aSubject and aTopic of the received notification, + an indication of how you are going to interrupt the user if the notification is granted
20:13:56 <flo> s/give//
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20:15:42 <Mic|web> aTopic is what you got, aType is how you want to interrupt and aSubject allows to decide depending on its content
20:16:03 <Mic|web> *aReason (is aTopic)
20:16:36 <flo> aReason is aTopic, right
20:21:27 <Mic|web> The other part of the line was also right?
20:22:22 <flo> yes
20:22:34 <Mic|web> Ok, thanks for clarifying this
20:22:58 <flo> I'm not sure if that API is stable yet (-> if you find bugs we can fix them).
20:23:58 <Mic|web> I'll re-read the documentation there and maybe propose some additions to clarify if you wouldn't mind
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20:25:04 <Mic|web> bye, have a nice evening
20:25:10 <flo> bye
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21:01:35 <flo> "/help is not a supported command. Type /help to see the list of commands." hmm
21:01:39 <flo> it seems I broke something :)
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21:14:57 <flo> was a stupid typo of course :(
21:15:49 <flo> but it works now :)
21:15:56 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 837 to bug 832.
21:15:57 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org requested review from the wind for attachment 837 on bug 832.
21:15:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=832 enh, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Differentiate commands that work only in MUCs for /help
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21:23:50 <flo> Good night! :)
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22:06:26 <clokep> flo: I'm testing out your patch..../join isn't working for me on IRC private messages, is that the desired behavior?
22:06:40 <clokep> I'll put it in the bug too. :)
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22:08:21 <ecaron> Is there any way to make IM windows always popup? (i.e. never make them auto-minimized)
22:08:38 <ecaron> I keep getting chats that are hidden and I don't know they're hidden until I try to close ib
22:12:42 <clokep> ecaron: Are you using the hidden conversation stuff?
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22:13:20 <clokep> Highlight can probably do that.
22:13:26 <ecaron> I'm not sure. I'm still on 1.0 and don't have any addons installed.
22:13:33 <clokep> Then no, you don't.
22:13:42 <clokep> By pop up, you mean you want chats to act like you were pinged?
22:14:38 <ecaron> By pop up, I just mean open up. Right now if I'm chatting with someone and close the chat, I don't see their messages until I re-open a new chat window with them.
22:15:16 <clokep> Uhhh...it should pop up automatically I believe.
22:16:18 <clokep> (Also by "chat" do you mean a "multi-user chat" or an "private message". :))
22:16:36 <ecaron> Just Google Talk / typically XMPP stuff (no muc, just simple stuff)
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22:16:43 <clokep> Oh OK.
22:16:51 <clokep> It shuld pop up automatically whenever you receive an IM then.
22:17:00 <clokep> (And it should notify you on the taskbar, unless you unchecked that option.)
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22:17:04 <ecaron> I'm trying to reproduce it over Google now w/ the wife, then I can send you a join.me so you can see what I'm talking about (if you'd like)
22:17:09 <clokep> (...I think that's an option.)
22:18:36 <ecaron> Ok, as long as I'm not missing some stupid obvious setting I'll start working harder on reproducing the problem.
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22:19:53 <clokep> Yeah, nothing in the error console I assume?
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22:47:04 <ecaron> clokep: Nothing that stands out. There are errors in there, but they're almost all from IRC
22:47:15 <ecaron> "Got a NOTICE on AUTH, which does not exist" kind of thing
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22:57:31 <clokep> Yeah, that's not actually an error. :)
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23:35:25 <lewellyn> flo: i can't make any commitments right now. i'm a week behind on my own app launch atm. :(