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00:42:01 <-- Ornthalas has quit (Quit: KTHXBYE) 00:54:34 <-- GeekShadow has quit (Quit: The cake is a lie !) 01:27:21 <-- micahg has quit (Ping timeout) 03:08:00 --> mepine has joined #instantbird 03:30:02 --> micahg has joined #instantbird 04:47:57 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 04:47:58 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 05:05:59 <-- clokep has quit (Ping timeout) 05:12:35 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 05:12:35 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 05:13:26 <-- DGMurdockIII has quit (Connection reset by peer) 05:14:50 --> DGMurdockIII has joined #instantbird 05:17:31 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird 05:56:42 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Ping timeout) 06:18:05 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre) 06:30:55 <-- DGMurdockIII has quit (Quit: get satisfied! :: www.unitedservers.de ««« (Gamers.IRC) »»» gamersirc.net ::) 07:27:52 --> tymerkaev_away has joined #instantbird 08:07:52 <-- tymerkaev_away has quit (Ping timeout) 08:40:31 --> Ornthalas has joined #instantbird 08:42:47 --> Even has joined #instantbird 08:42:48 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 08:43:16 <-- Even has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre) 08:43:26 --> Even has joined #instantbird 08:43:26 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 09:45:48 --> Even1 has joined #instantbird 09:46:27 <-- Even has quit (Ping timeout) 10:12:03 <-- Ornthalas has quit (Quit: KTHXBYE) 11:24:29 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird 11:39:29 <-- mepine has quit (Quit: é¨ç·£ä¹) 12:04:12 <-- Jan has quit (Ping timeout) 12:05:17 --> Jan has joined #instantbird 12:05:50 * Jan is now known as IRCMonkey5178 12:20:51 * IRCMonkey5178 is now known as Jan 12:27:32 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Ping timeout) 12:27:39 --> Even has joined #instantbird 12:27:39 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 12:28:46 <-- Even1 has quit (Ping timeout) 12:48:02 --> Even1 has joined #instantbird 12:49:16 <-- Even has quit (Ping timeout) 13:15:15 --> Even has joined #instantbird 13:15:15 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 13:16:11 <-- Even1 has quit (Ping timeout) 13:17:07 --> hicham has joined #instantbird 14:02:50 --> Even1 has joined #instantbird 14:03:46 <-- Even has quit (Ping timeout) 14:27:09 --> GeekShadow has joined #instantbird 14:30:56 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 14:30:56 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 14:32:33 <Mic> hi 14:49:51 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre) 14:50:10 --> flo has joined #instantbird 14:50:10 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 15:24:57 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Client exited) 15:33:53 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 16:04:41 --> Even has joined #instantbird 16:04:41 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 16:05:56 <-- Even1 has quit (Ping timeout) 16:55:40 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird 17:00:05 <-- Tonnes has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]) 17:24:37 <-- micahg has quit (Ping timeout) 17:31:27 <-- Even has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre) 17:49:54 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird 18:25:18 --> Ornthalas has joined #instantbird 18:42:20 --> Tonnes has joined #instantbird 18:45:22 * tymerkaev is now known as tymerkaev_away 18:54:11 --> micahg has joined #instantbird 19:02:53 <-- Mic has left #instantbird () 19:35:23 * tymerkaev_away is now known as tymerkaev 19:44:33 --> skeledrew1 has joined #instantbird 19:46:34 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout) 19:58:46 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 19:58:46 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 20:51:01 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird 20:52:16 <-- skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout) 21:08:40 * tymerkaev is now known as tymerkaev_away 21:10:45 * tymerkaev_away is now known as tymerkaev 21:14:46 <hicham> seems like the blocked thing is coming from libpurple 21:15:26 <hicham> pidgin-2.7.7 shows my msn contacts as being blocked :( 21:15:36 <hicham> let's file a bug upstream 22:02:05 <flo> hicham: are you sure they aren't really blocked on the server? 22:03:15 <hicham> flo : of course I am sure 22:03:33 <hicham> flo : those are people I will never block :) 22:03:58 <flo> will never block *intentionally* ;) 22:06:27 <hicham> flo : and I am able to talk to them :) 22:06:46 <flo> do they see you as online? 22:07:11 <hicham> I don't know about that 22:07:26 <hicham> but I still see "Block", when right clicking them 22:14:56 <hicham> flo : what do you think ? 22:15:43 <flo> you see "Blocked Yes"? 22:28:19 <The_Tick> whee 22:31:12 <hicham> yes 22:31:53 <The_Tick> what about in kopete? 22:32:24 <hicham> kopete doesn't use purple AFAIK 22:32:31 <The_Tick> exactly 22:32:39 <The_Tick> rule out libpurple 22:32:59 <hicham> how is that relevant to this channel ? 22:33:09 <The_Tick> well since you are so convinced it's libpurple 22:33:11 <flo> hicham: to see if it's caused by libpurple or not 22:33:12 <The_Tick> and not your account 22:33:23 <hicham> flo : ok 22:33:23 <The_Tick> but you have not used a client which doesn't use libpurple 22:33:33 <The_Tick> or you could just use the official client 22:37:06 <flo> The_Tick: A few days (weeks? :-S) ago, you were surprised that we didn't seem to care too much about whether our JS protocol plugins would be upstreamable into libpurple. 22:37:23 <The_Tick> I was surprised you guys thought it was hard 22:37:42 <The_Tick> bear in mind the devs on libpurple I talked to didn't really seem interested in seeing a twitter prpl 22:38:01 <The_Tick> but they aren't opposed to prpls as long as you stick around to maintain them 22:38:08 <The_Tick> I don't know what they'd do about a js plugin though 22:38:21 <flo> well, the things I've tried to upstream fell in 2 categories: the obvious bugfixes (those are usually accepted, with more or less latency) and the real changes (when I tried to propose anything, my messages were simply ignored) 22:38:44 <The_Tick> I don't have any experience with their mailing list 22:38:45 <The_Tick> just irc 22:38:57 <The_Tick> the other thing I have that's different 22:39:08 <The_Tick> is one of the adium devs was also a committer on pidgin 22:39:26 <The_Tick> and essentially adium was the gaim/pidgin of the mac 22:39:38 <flo> was he a commiter on pidgin before working on Adium, or gained that because of his work? 22:39:45 <The_Tick> because of his work 22:40:10 <The_Tick> they just got below 100 patch tickets 22:40:14 <The_Tick> so they are working on patches 22:40:19 <The_Tick> I think they have the problemyou guys have 22:40:27 <The_Tick> in that they really don't have many working on the project 22:40:38 <flo> I know that 22:41:14 <flo> but I suspect they actually have another additional problem: lots of people in charge on making the decision (with some stop energy among them), and not a single leader who can just plain decide something 22:41:23 <The_Tick> nah 22:41:28 <The_Tick> unless it's a huge change 22:42:28 <flo> lots if time I've seen people (external potential new contributors) suggest doing something (actually volunteering to do it), and they got discouraging replies from respected commiters 22:42:59 <The_Tick> such as? 22:43:16 <flo> doing nightlies with buildbot for example 22:43:25 <flo> some crash reporting work 22:43:40 <The_Tick> nightlies means infrastructure to maintain 22:43:44 <The_Tick> same with crash reporting 22:43:45 <flo> sure. 22:44:02 <flo> they had people volunteering to do it, offering the servers 22:44:03 <The_Tick> they have enough shit to handle on infrastucture I think 22:44:10 <The_Tick> ya, and then when the server dies 22:44:18 <The_Tick> or that person in 4 months realizes they don't have time 22:44:20 <flo> that's what they replied, yes 22:44:27 <The_Tick> we did that on adium 22:44:42 <The_Tick> the person who volunteered the infrastructure never updated the bug reporter to be useful 22:44:48 <The_Tick> when he had a fight with his room mate 22:44:51 <The_Tick> he lost his free hosting 22:44:59 <The_Tick> they have good reasons to say what they're saying 22:45:15 <hicham> I think ideally purplexpcom should be upstream, so that all mozilla based apps can use purple 22:45:17 <The_Tick> in those instances 22:45:33 <flo> hicham: not possible because of the GPL. 22:45:47 <The_Tick> oh it's mpl? 22:46:03 <flo> The_Tick: mozilla is, and won't accept any GPL'ed code 22:46:14 <The_Tick> which is stupid 22:46:27 <flo> "they have good reasons" ;) 22:46:35 <The_Tick> if the code sucks, tat's one thing 22:46:39 <The_Tick> or if the idea sucks, sure 22:46:47 <hicham> flo : i meant upstream in purple, not in mozilla 22:46:47 <The_Tick> but if it's just licensing, then that's just idiocy 22:46:57 <The_Tick> hicham: how is that relevant to purple though? :) 22:47:08 <The_Tick> if you can answer that 22:47:13 <The_Tick> you know how to submit it to them 22:47:39 <The_Tick> flo: pidgin also has a problem of people sticking around forever 22:47:43 <The_Tick> when they should disappear 22:48:03 <The_Tick> so you may be seeing some of that as well 22:48:13 <flo> very possible 22:48:53 <flo> don't get me wrong. I've sometimes got very helpful replies when asking things to pidgin developers. I'm just seeing them as very resistant to changes. 22:49:26 <The_Tick> changes mean more work 22:49:27 <hicham> they want to stick to the "GTK way" 22:49:41 <The_Tick> but if it's just a prpl 22:49:53 <flo> their policy of not changing any API before the next major version which won't happen before an unknown date (which may not be so far currently by the way for 3.0) makes it almost impossible to hope having an unpatched libpurple 22:49:56 <The_Tick> then why not upstream it, especially if you're going to be around? 22:50:08 <The_Tick> flo: that policy makes adium possible 22:50:34 <The_Tick> not having that policy makes dealing with libpurple a pain in the ass 22:50:50 <flo> The_Tick: I'm not saying that policy is stupid. They have their reasons that I do understand. I'm just saying it's not appropriate for our needs. 22:50:54 <The_Tick> having it means that you know for certain that during the whole 2.x range, that you don't have to worry about it 22:51:03 <The_Tick> then don't use libpurple 22:51:24 <The_Tick> you either need to use libpurple and should like how they set things up 22:51:28 <The_Tick> or you don't 22:51:48 <The_Tick> but that's a fundamental rule that I think is essential for applications using their library 22:51:57 <The_Tick> if your issue is with the no release dates 22:52:11 <The_Tick> that's just how most projects I know of outside of bsd and mozilla projects work 22:54:44 <hicham> if you course, if you manage to merge your changes without affecting the API, maybe they will accept some day 22:54:46 <flo> I don't see things as black and white as "we should like it or not use it" ;). There are things about it that I don't like and would rather avoid, and some that are valuable to us and we use. 22:55:35 <flo> as I said their are things that we successfully upstream, the obvious bugfixes (well, obvious once the fix is know of course ;) especially. 22:55:41 <flo> that doesn't mean we have to agree with the whole vision. 22:55:55 <The_Tick> I just don't agree with that 22:56:04 <The_Tick> if you keep that mentality then ya, libpurple is hard 22:56:08 <flo> which part? 22:56:29 <The_Tick> the whole bit 22:56:37 <The_Tick> if you don't understand the reasons behind the mentality 22:56:43 <The_Tick> and agree to them 22:56:47 <The_Tick> then yes, you're not going to likeit 22:57:05 <The_Tick> that's true for anything 22:58:02 <flo> I may also understand and not agree, which doesn't mean I don't respect it (usually I have a lot of respect for people giving away their work for free, whether I agree with the ideas or not). 22:58:21 <The_Tick> I don't understnad then 23:00:24 <hicham> flo : amsn showed them blocked also :\ 23:01:32 <The_Tick> amsn is not based on libprpl 23:01:43 <The_Tick> it's your account 23:02:59 <flo> The_Tick: is there anything I should explain better, or should we rather focus on things on which we agree? ;) 23:05:55 --> Mook has joined #instantbird 23:08:26 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Ping timeout) 23:08:43 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 23:08:43 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 23:08:48 <The_Tick> I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about 23:10:54 <flo> I think you showed interesting mockups and had interesting ideas about how the buddy list could be replaced 23:11:08 <The_Tick> I just think the bl isn't a good idea 23:11:13 <The_Tick> from a ui standpoint 23:11:59 <flo> I tend to think it's a poor UI because it attempts to do several things with a single UI, which cannot fit for all these needs at once 23:12:37 <The_Tick> with adium for years 23:12:44 <The_Tick> people have come around asking about how to better hide it 23:13:02 <The_Tick> which to me screams it's just a bad idea 23:13:19 <The_Tick> we have better ui's for place holders 23:13:25 <The_Tick> contacts are really just bookmarks for people 23:13:34 <The_Tick> so why not treat them like bookmarks? :) 23:14:18 <flo> if you look at the statuses, they are also a source of information 23:14:28 <The_Tick> but is that useful information? 23:14:35 <The_Tick> 9/10 of the time, not really 23:14:39 <flo> depends on what the users is trying to do 23:14:50 <The_Tick> why does it matter though? :) 23:14:54 <flo> I see the needs as: 23:15:54 <flo> very common: the user attempts to start a conversation, and has >95% chances of starting a conversation similar to a common previous one. -> seems like bookmarks/history, we should leverage that data to show likely actions and provide helpful completions. 23:16:40 <flo> less common, but real: the user is bored, is trying to find someone to talk to, and scans the list of all his "buddies", trying to see if there's someone to talk to. 23:17:21 <flo> very uncommon, but really useful when needed: the user is managing the list, cleaning up some mess, adding aliases, changing the groups/tags, adding/removing/blocking people. 23:18:26 <flo> (there's also the case of someone trying to find some information in a (recent) conversation with someone, but I think that can mostly be merged with the common case of starting a conversation) 23:20:22 <The_Tick> but none of that requires the buddy list 23:20:40 <flo> the buddy list as currently know is poor for all of these 3 cases 23:20:43 <flo> *known 23:21:09 <The_Tick> I think we also have to consider that people mostly talk to the same people 23:21:14 <The_Tick> and rarely talk to some of the others 23:21:22 <The_Tick> but may have a large amount of people they just don't talk to 23:21:24 <The_Tick> that they have added 23:21:40 <flo> yes, if we have a good history database, we can probably guess who are the 5-6 contacts that matter 23:21:54 <The_Tick> you don't need to 23:21:55 <The_Tick> :) 23:22:24 <flo> and the other 150+ people are some people they would reply to, or ask very specific questions to, but not talk about random things to them 23:23:05 <The_Tick> I think people know who those folks are 23:23:19 <The_Tick> so you don't need some advanced thing tojust add to a special area 23:23:55 <clokep> I think flo is suggesting having them bubble to the top automatically instead of forcing users to get through a set up period. 23:24:11 <flo> yes and no. They know who matters in the list, but not necessarily why it's important for them to be put in a special area. 23:24:36 <The_Tick> clokep: what he's suggesting depends on log file sizes 23:24:42 <The_Tick> what if the user doesn't use logging? :) 23:25:09 <flo> The_Tick: do you have estimations of how many users would disable the logs? 23:25:27 <The_Tick> nope 23:26:00 <flo> the users we target with autoadaptative systems are those who will most likely never touch any setting 23:26:06 <clokep> The vast majority of users of programs tend to /not/ change any default options. 23:26:23 <clokep> And the ones that change options should be smart enough to figure out how to set up other stuff manually. 23:26:27 <flo> those who touch the settings can adapt the things themselves 23:27:27 <flo> we would need a way to make "my new boss" or "that person with whom I fell in love this morning" go to the top of the list instantly anyway 23:27:39 <The_Tick> ok, that's a good way to look at it 23:27:58 <clokep> Oh damn, I hate when I fall in love with people and need to talk to them all the time suddenly. :P 23:28:15 <The_Tick> so I always thought a bookmark bar kind of thing would be a good use of space 23:28:26 <The_Tick> simple, easy, people already know how it works 23:29:11 <flo> clokep: it's even worse if you need them to talk to you, and stupidly stares at them in the list hoping a conversation will pop up :-D 23:29:36 <clokep> Hahaha. 23:29:38 <clokep> Good luck. 23:29:41 * clokep is now known as clokep_food 23:30:51 <flo> The_Tick: I think it's great to keep track of the status of the few individuals that matter, and as a way to get back quickly into a previous conversation 23:32:56 <flo> another (maybe not so good) idea I've had on this topic is that if we are likely to talk to these individuals when they become available if we are currently available too, maybe the application should just open the conversations automatically so that we no longer have to track it ourselves 23:43:55 <The_Tick> I don't know about that one 23:44:26 <flo> we need add-ons to experiment the funny ideas before really considering them for inclusion ;) 23:46:00 <-- clokep_food has quit (Ping timeout) 23:47:16 <The_Tick> I'm not that interested :) 23:48:05 <flo> (just to be clear) I wasn't suggesting you do that specific one. 23:48:50 <flo> but if you want to experiment with your own fun ideas, don't hesitate (and ask for help, especially if our current API sucks around the places you need to hack) 23:51:15 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 23:51:15 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep