#instantbird log on 07 08 2010

All times are UTC.

00:01:25 <skeledrew> i meant TTS
00:01:32 <skeledrew> text to speech
00:01:52 <clokep> Ah. Yeah no. I was just happy that no one talked in the time it took me to get gas and get back here.
00:02:06 <skeledrew> lol
00:02:46 <skeledrew> i need more visual notifiers of new text fast
00:18:12 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
00:18:55 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
01:22:54 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
01:26:02 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
01:46:10 * clokep is very frustrated by wrappedJSObject and needs to take a break.
02:36:20 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
02:38:45 --> clokep has joined #instantbird
02:59:57 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
03:54:22 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
03:54:54 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
04:35:26 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
05:38:46 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
05:45:06 --> Mic has joined #instantbird
07:22:51 --> askalot has joined #instantbird
07:23:52 <askalot> hi
07:26:49 <Mic> Welcome
07:27:12 <askalot> Mic: and idea
07:27:33 <askalot> what about making instant bird work from within a regular mozill browser
07:27:38 <askalot> sorta like a plugin
07:27:43 <askalot> that would be awesome!
07:28:46 <Mic> I think someone tried integrating parts of Instantbird into Thunderbird
07:29:09 <Mic> I'm not sure how much progress this project has made so far
07:29:57 <askalot> http://www.spicebird.com/ ?
07:30:10 <askalot> seems to work
07:30:41 --> flo has joined #instantbird
07:30:41 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
07:31:04 <-- askalot has left #instantbird ()
07:32:25 <flo> Good morning :)
07:33:48 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird
07:34:23 <Mic> Morning
07:39:55 * flo just found http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&p=9599105
07:46:48 <Mic> That's a 'good' screenshot:
07:46:49 <Mic> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/images/p/733/1248957108
08:19:58 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
08:23:50 <Mic> flo: is the tooltip on the status message textbox necessary as it is?
08:24:33 <Mic> Currently it displays exactly the status message which is readable anyways (no idea about accessibility here)
08:25:27 <skeledrew> i guess it prevents you from scrolling up in a busy room to read the topic
08:25:48 <skeledrew> i say change it to an info box though
08:26:00 <Mic> I'm sorry. I was referring to the status textbox on the buddlist
08:26:02 <skeledrew> morning :)
08:26:07 <Mic> welcome
08:26:29 <skeledrew> which?
08:26:38 <skeledrew> oh. that
08:29:10 <skeledrew> i don't mind it there, but i have a minor irritation with it too. changing my status doesn't mean i want to enter a new message. and the last message needs to be saved
08:30:57 <Mic> Works for me
08:31:22 <Mic> The textbox gets focus and the last message is selected
08:31:31 <Mic> Clicking elsewhere exits edit-mode
08:31:47 <Mic> What do you mean by "last message needs to be saved"?
08:32:19 <Mic> Over different sessions?
08:32:24 <skeledrew> yeah. but if i restart IB the status isn't there
08:32:53 <Mic> We might even have a bug about this already
08:33:02 <skeledrew> k
08:33:45 <skeledrew> is there a way to search bugs via tags, description or someting else apart from it's number?
08:33:52 <Mic> apparantly not
08:33:58 <skeledrew> pity
08:34:25 <Mic> I meant there's no bug filed yet if I'm not mistaken
08:34:30 <Mic> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/query.cgi?format=advanced
08:34:38 <Mic> Here's the advanced search field
08:34:46 <Mic> might keep you busy for a while ;)
08:35:03 <skeledrew> lol
08:35:04 <skeledrew> k
08:35:36 <skeledrew> hmm
08:36:22 <skeledrew> seems i better make a new email acct for my bugzilla acct. not a big fan of broadcasting my email for bots...
08:37:45 <Mic> Morian: can you somehow obfuscate email adresses if you can't display the user name instead?
08:38:19 <Mic> throw away the TLD or something like that?
08:39:28 <Mic> skeledrew: Bugzilla doesn't display the email adresses to people that are not logged in but Instantbot unfortunately writes them to the log accessible from the web
08:41:19 <skeledrew> that means it can be still found by bots...
08:42:26 <Morian> ah
08:43:25 <Morian> do we want to hide this at the moment it goes on the channel or at the moment it goes on the web ?
08:45:12 <Mic> I'd say the web then
08:45:24 <skeledrew> maybe instantbot can be reconfiged to not display some emails, like an anonymous mode for some addresses or something
08:46:47 <skeledrew> ... since the channel's logged to the web and accesibble by anyone (or anything)...
08:47:02 <skeledrew> *accessible
08:52:08 <Morian> Is the problem the address itself or the fact that is it easyly recoverable by bots (actually) ? I can just apply an algorithm to make it unreadable by bots but still recoverable by humans. (something like base64), flo?
08:54:18 <Mic> Honestly I just mind the bots
08:54:42 <Mic> Includes Google Bot ;)
08:55:00 <skeledrew> lol
08:55:43 <skeledrew> i'd go with the algorithm
10:15:42 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
10:16:18 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
10:35:06 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Client exited)
11:11:35 <flo> Morian: I would say, make it not print it in the channel
11:12:08 <flo> I think only the part before the @ is displayed for "... has changed bug XXX status to RESOLVED", but for new bugs filed the full email is displayed.
11:12:16 <flo> that's inconsistent
11:12:35 <flo> Mic: I'm not sure exactly which tooltips annoys you
11:13:41 <flo> ideally the one above the status message should be displayed only if the status message was cropped, but I don't know how to do that
11:18:09 --> skeledrew1 has joined #instantbird
11:19:13 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
11:25:39 <-- skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout)
11:36:04 <Mic> That's the one
11:36:14 <Mic> Even though I wouldn't call it 'annoying'
11:36:45 <Mic> It was the obvious duplication of the message ..
11:40:57 --> clokep_work has joined #instantbird
11:44:56 <clokep_work> Good morning.
11:45:42 <Mic> hello
11:48:06 <clokep_work> Was having trouble with some of your code last night Mic, but need to investigate some more before I have questions. :(
11:48:46 <Mic> Trouble in which sense?
11:49:05 <clokep_work> aNode.ownerDocument was returning a wrappedJSObject, which I figured out.
11:49:20 <clokep_work> But once I "unwrapped" it...the HTMLDocument object didn't seem to have any properties.
11:49:38 <clokep_work> so node.ownerDocument.wrappedJSObject.createElement failed (silently :'().
12:01:07 <flo> why do you need the .wrappedJSObject here?
12:02:14 <clokep_work> flo: I'm not sure I do, but it was wrapped in an XCPWrapper or whatever its called. So I couldn't access createElement, but even with it there...I still can't.
12:02:34 <clokep_work> (I don't expect to need it, but either way I can't get to createElement.)
12:02:37 <flo> but the original link bugzilla add-on works, doesn't it?
12:02:57 <flo> and it doesn't use that property
12:03:09 <clokep_work> Yes. But I wrapped somethings in extra layers of anonymity.
12:03:18 <flo> :-S
12:03:41 <clokep_work> The function is dynamically generated based on the pattern that can be passed. I think that's the issue.
12:04:04 <Mic> Sorry, can't help you right now
12:04:14 <clokep_work> That's fine. :)
12:04:16 * Mic is off to a meeting
12:58:46 --> DetroitLibertyPenguin has joined #instantbird
13:08:36 --> deOmega has joined #instantbird
13:13:30 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
13:14:00 <-- deOmega has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
13:14:22 --> deOmega has joined #instantbird
13:25:48 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
13:33:23 <clokep_work> deOmega: Was that you who was having trouble with Stratini Instant + Vertical Tabs?
13:35:09 <deOmega> clokep_work: no, never had a problem with either
13:35:48 <clokep_work> OK, I got an email from the author last night about a seeming compatibility problem someone is having. Haven't heard back from my reply yet though.
13:36:10 <deOmega> ah... awesome
13:36:29 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
13:36:48 <deOmega> HA!  ok, that was the author I was speaking of yesterday
13:37:17 <deOmega> hmm
13:37:27 <clokep_work> That's what I was thinking. But you weren't talking about compatibility issues?
13:37:55 <deOmega> not at all\
13:38:13 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
13:38:21 <clokep_work> OK. :)
13:38:33 <deOmega> actually, my inquiry to him  was about  skinning that  windows babyblue area
13:38:55 <clokep_work> Hm. I see.
13:39:11 <deOmega> Maybe when he saw that area... he assumed it was a compatibility issue
13:39:30 <deOmega> but  that is the same area that  is unskinned in the horizantal tabs
13:39:35 <clokep_work> He sent me a picture, I think its from you. One second.
13:39:46 <deOmega> ok
13:40:58 <clokep_work> Black theme, background of the tabs is unskinned (default theme) although I would say more of "grey" not "blue" there's a question mark there. Conversation is with "Rosie", two tabs open, the insert smilie extension is installed.
13:41:33 <deOmega> lol..  Rosie's name is travelling :)
13:41:59 <deOmega> THAT is  from me
13:42:22 <clokep_work> So from what you've told me, the issue exists even /without/ Vertical Tabs installed? (And are you on 0.2b2 or 0.2pre or some other version...?)
13:42:58 <deOmega> This has nothing to do with your  extension imo.. i was actually wondering why he was mentioning compatibil;ity in his reply but thought  it was something under the hood
13:43:29 <deOmega> i am on teh latest nightly
13:43:40 <deOmega> I update every day
13:43:44 <clokep_work> Ah OK. So behind the tabs is the standard grey instead of black pretty mu ch is the issue?
13:43:53 <deOmega> yes
13:44:26 <deOmega> and it  is not really  grey but i can see why one would think it is grey.. it is indeed babyblue
13:45:24 <deOmega> Flo actually pointed it out  long before vertical tabs
13:46:07 <clokep_work> Do you think you could provide a screenshot with vertical tabs installed and circle the area I'm looking at just to make sure I know what I'm talking about. :)
13:46:19 <deOmega> sure
13:46:30 <clokep_work> Thanks. Sorry to be a pain. :)
13:46:37 <deOmega> Pain???
13:46:51 <deOmega> ha!  this is for my and i am sure others benefit
13:47:33 <clokep_work> You're on Vista?
13:47:41 <deOmega> no, windows 7
13:48:35 <deOmega> same thing really though in regards to teh babyblue
13:48:42 <clokep_work> Ah OK.
13:49:53 <deOmega> by teh way, that  color is there for teh default theme also
13:50:24 <deOmega> it just stands out more because  I am using stratini Black
13:50:31 <clokep_work> Well, to me it would seem that something is not getting skinned properly then.
13:50:45 <clokep_work> I.e. it /is/ the default theme and Stratini Black isn't overwriting it properly. :)
13:50:50 <deOmega> i will get that screenshot :).. organizing windows
13:51:06 <deOmega> correct
13:52:05 <clokep_work> I really do like the Stratini Instant though, its nice. Maybe I'll try it.
13:52:58 <deOmega> very nice.. somehow it also seems to handle the message input area properly also... does not seem as volatile as teh default...  but maybe that is in my head.
13:55:26 <flo> volatile?
13:55:51 <clokep_work> Strong words. Uh oh.
13:56:11 <deOmega> lol...  I mean,   lovely
13:56:58 <deOmega> no, it  seems to have a steady size and when more text is added it adjusts for it.. as soon as you hit send, it goes back to how it  was initially
13:57:01 <flo> how is something about the message input area handling related to a theme?
13:57:08 <flo> (or have I missed something?)
13:57:19 <deOmega> I hav eno idea..  it is likely mental flo as i said
13:57:32 <clokep_work> deOmega: Sounds exactly how mine is handled. :)
13:57:44 <flo> then, what's the expected behavior, and what's the unpleasant behavior?
13:58:06 <deOmega> ah.. then maybe i am reflecting on a time when we were discussing the input area
13:58:20 <deOmega> the expected behavior is what i stated above
13:59:06 <deOmega> Let me take some images
13:59:40 <clokep_work> flo: popupset is a context menu?
13:59:51 <clokep_work> deOmega: Can I get my images first? :) Make flo wait in line. ;)
14:00:19 <deOmega> i am gonna kill two birds with one stone
14:00:56 <-- deOmega has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
14:01:15 * flo wonders if deOmega is attempting to kill Instantbird with his stone
14:01:23 --> deOmega has joined #instantbird
14:03:33 <deOmega> hello?
14:03:59 <clokep_work> Are you just testing or do you want us to answer? :P
14:04:19 <deOmega> perfect
14:06:06 <deOmega> please ignore me for a moment i do not mean to ramble but hoping to  accomplish one last thing
14:08:32 <instantbot> Just appeared in Blog@instantbird.org - http://blog.instantbird.org/ :
14:08:33 <instantbot> http://blog.instantbird.org/n23-cleaner-ui.html - Cleaner UI
14:09:16 <deOmega> ok, here you go... both cases should be covered
14:09:18 <deOmega> http://i29.tinypic.com/zkpv06.jpg
14:09:34 * clokep_work forgot how ugly the old tabs were.
14:10:35 <deOmega> Look at the difference in  the  height of the input  areas
14:10:48 <clokep_work> My input area is always 2 lines high
14:11:12 <deOmega> Maybe i messed with my settings  and he has some sort of setting in his where he has min size to be 2 lines
14:11:22 <flo> clokep_work: that's why we need a reminder sometimes ;)
14:11:46 <deOmega> while teh default keeps my settings
14:11:53 <deOmega> Yes... especially me
14:12:38 <deOmega> also notice that his input area has  more padding on both  ends
14:15:25 <clokep_work> Maybe there's a min-height setting that got changed somewhere.
14:15:44 <clokep_work> deOmega: Do you know if the Stratini code is available online.
14:15:47 <deOmega> i am trying to find it in  IB.. i do mess around :)
14:15:49 * clokep_work doesn't want to have to download code.
14:16:40 * flo is currently discussing with Even the way we could add some test builds between nightlies and alpha releases
14:16:53 <deOmega> what is teh name of that  text entry area?
14:16:54 <flo> builds that would be nightly builds, but know to be able to start and connect
14:19:23 <clokep_work> flo: Songbird releases "Blessed" nightly builds I believe?
14:19:33 <flo> :)
14:19:44 <clokep_work> How is that different from an alpha though?
14:19:57 <clokep_work> I guess what do you consider to be "alpha" vs "beta" etc. since everyone seems to have different definitions. :(
14:19:59 <flo> it can contain regressions
14:20:44 <flo> alpha is "significant features added since the last major version, but not nearly done on adding features", beta is "close to what we want to achieve with the final version"
14:21:05 <-- deOmega has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
14:21:28 --> deOmega has joined #instantbird
14:22:19 <clokep_work> So after first alpha, hopefully no regressions (at least from the previous version), after first beta, no more added features? Roughly?
14:22:33 <flo> after last beta.
14:22:39 <clokep_work> I like the idea, might get some other people using "nightly" type builds. Which are very very stable.
14:22:58 <flo> they are usable
14:23:09 <flo> but with the risk that someday you may have something that doesn't work at all
14:23:13 <deOmega> clokep_work: did those images address your curiosity? 
14:23:19 <flo> (it happened 3 times since we produce them iirc)
14:23:28 <clokep_work> deOmega: No. I wanted one without Vertical Tabs. :)
14:23:34 <flo> with this system we could eliminate this risk almost completely
14:23:55 <-- deOmega has left #instantbird ()
14:24:49 <clokep_work> So would this replace the nightly builds, or just randomly (monthly?) take a nightly that we /know/ works and just mark it/respin it as a "blessed" nightly?
14:26:15 <flo> the blessed builds would be identical to nightly builds
14:26:33 <flo> the only difference would be that they update themselves only to other "blessed" nightlies
14:26:49 <clokep_work> Got it. :)
14:27:29 --> deOmega has joined #instantbird
14:27:35 * clokep_work still wants to use the raw, untested, dangerous, cutting-edge, bone shattering, fire spitting, blood boiling nightly builds.
14:27:42 <deOmega> clokep_work: http://i25.tinypic.com/110hst5.jpg
14:28:05 <clokep_work> deOmega: Thanks. Will include that in my reply to him.
14:28:06 <flo> clokep_work: for the system to work we need to trusted nightly testers to tag the blessed builds ;)
14:28:48 <clokep_work> flo: How often you thinking of releasing? Two weeks, month? Whenever new features become stable?
14:28:52 <flo> deOmega: clokep_work: I think that colored area could be called "the background of the tabstrip" ;)
14:29:06 <flo> by releasing you mean "blessing"?
14:30:35 <clokep_work> Yes.
14:30:44 * clokep_work feels strange addressing and signing an email with the same name.
14:31:02 <flo> I was thinking something like "every 2 days" or "once a week", but "every time a significant code change happened" could be nice :)
14:31:45 <clokep_work> "Once a week unless a significant change occurs (and is stable enough) that its worth doing an extra"?
14:31:48 <flo> we would also need to have a way to list the changes
14:32:13 <flo> we would need to define "significant" ;)
14:32:58 <clokep_work> Of course, but I like the idea. Gives testing to a larger range of people, but without the hassle of updating every day and insurance that it'll "work" (mostly).
14:33:47 <flo> yeah, and it mostly addresses the problem of people who advocate "release early, release often" because they don't want to wait for the new cool stuff
14:35:18 <clokep_work> Not sure what you could do about changes, but its important to show so people know "where to look" for regressions.
14:35:37 <flo> and for new cool stuff :)
14:38:46 <flo> or maybe we can just tweet each time we push something important?
14:39:58 <clokep_work> That might be a better idea...small teasers, etc. that don't require full blog posts.
14:42:45 <clokep_work> A little blurb and an image type thing?
14:43:31 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
14:47:43 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
15:10:19 <deOmega> flo: do people still use twitter? :)
15:10:43 <clokep_work> Twitter is still growing. :P I know a lot of people that use it.
15:13:29 <deOmega> so do you think it is a sustainable technology/trend... of  just a fad
15:13:37 <deOmega> i  ask that sincerely
15:14:00 <flo> I think microblogging will stay around for a long time
15:14:07 <clokep_work> Is any social networking really sustainable?
15:14:15 <flo> not sure if that will be twitter or if improved services will take its place
15:14:25 <clokep_work> I agree with flo, I'm not sure /Twitter/ will be around forever, but I think microblogging has a legit purpose.
15:14:45 <flo> I'd like if it could be changed to a model where there's not a single company controlling it
15:14:48 <deOmega> yeah, i thought about that idea
15:15:48 <deOmega> I was on it for a moment because my wife asked me to (LOL>> Same as facebook, she asked me), but i left because it just seemed so ego driven
15:16:02 <deOmega> but i suppose.. such is life
15:16:46 <clokep_work> I use mine to stay in contact w/ some people on a more...day-to-day level then emails, etc. allow.
15:16:51 <clokep_work> I very much dislike Facebook. :(
15:17:27 <deOmega> One model i  cannot envision lasting outside the corporate world (But that is just me), but  Googlewave.  Interesting, but somehow i fear they may scrap it soon
15:18:52 <deOmega> People like to talk/sound off... and indeed i can see why a medium in which they can do that is sustainable....  question is whether  or not (as you said) twitter is the way
15:19:18 <clokep_work> deOmega: It seems like Wave'd be useful and interesting. My major issue with it is...it doesn't work. The software just doesn't work.
15:19:50 <deOmega> I agree with the latter.. does not work
15:20:04 <flo> clokep_work: We managed to use it (and it really helped) for some brainstorming (related to the update system).
15:20:19 <deOmega> Interesting
15:20:26 <flo> I would not trust it for something that should last more than some brainstorming
15:20:52 <flo> for brainstorming it was interesting to have a sort of IM conversation but with a tree view, with each of us typing at the same time, but replying to different ideas
15:21:12 <clokep_work> flo: I haven't used it in a year probably? But we tried it for some group projects, etc. Was too buggy.
15:21:45 <flo> we hit some bugs
15:21:48 <flo> but it still saved time
15:22:07 <flo> I guess it was usable because we were only 2 and kept IM as a backchannel
15:22:31 <clokep_work> Yeah. I really like the idea, I just think Google releeased it a bit early.
15:22:41 <clokep_work> I've heard its a lot better now actually, but I don't have a need for it ATM. :)
15:22:54 <deOmega> What has amazed me is... there has been cycles of negative  opinions regarding  instant messaging... but I have found that  everyone reverts to it eventually, after exploring the 'next  great thing '
15:23:50 <deOmega> so, i like teh idea of thinking.. regardiing messengers... how to meet people's needs to where they do not have to feel like their needs are not met
15:25:40 <clokep_work> flo: Any idea why popup can't be used with treecell? ;) It inherits it from XUL element.
15:26:23 <clokep_work> My major (current) problem with messaging (instant, and whatever-the-opposite-of-instant-is) is fragmenting my identity. I don't really want 15 screennames, 30 emails accounts, etc.
15:26:35 <flo> clokep_work: treecell is not a real DOM element
15:26:46 <flo> put the popup on the tree element
15:26:47 <clokep_work> Or I at elast want a program that can handle them all.
15:27:04 <clokep_work> But then it pops up through the tree instead of only over a certain column.
15:27:22 <clokep_work> Although I guess I can just close it if the column isn't correct...
15:27:36 <flo> you can get the selected column/row and return false if the popup should not show up
15:28:20 <clokep_work> Right, but its only XUL elements, there's not JavaScript involved (yet)...?
15:29:24 <clokep_work> Figured it out. :)
15:29:33 <flo> use the onpopupshowing event handler
15:29:48 <clokep_work> Yes, just realized that. Thanks.
15:29:56 <flo> np :)
15:34:03 <flo> gtg, back later :)
15:34:04 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
15:39:26 <-- DetroitLibertyPenguin has left #instantbird ()
15:39:37 --> DetroitLibertyPenguin has joined #instantbird
15:57:02 <deOmega> ah, i see that the aurthor  we discussed is  looking at  flos's blogs.  pretty cool
15:57:35 <deOmega> Those blogs are really helpful, and will be good  for reflection as IB matures
15:58:47 <clokep_work> Not sure what he means by "headers"? Like showing the buddyicon?
15:59:29 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
15:59:40 <deOmega> I am not sure myself
16:00:32 <deOmega> But i wills ay that  we do need more comprehensive avatar support
16:01:11 <deOmega> because i think it is from those we will get the  ICON/AVATAR tabs you  alluded to in the recent past
16:02:04 <deOmega> Some things for the sake of being pretty.. but some are really also to aid functionality
16:02:18 * clokep_work is now known as clokep_work_afk
16:03:53 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
16:03:55 <deOmega> eg: same way colorize helps differentiate users... icons help, if for example  we look at the theme  that i use.. metal... it has an icon for each poster...  
16:04:11 <deOmega> so I am reminded there on view of who said what
16:04:19 <deOmega> icon=avatar
16:06:27 <deOmega> There is a messenger program I have used that  allows me to assign  an avatar to   other users if they do not have one
16:07:01 <deOmega> so some may seem picky  but they do help with functionality
16:15:20 * clokep_work_afk is now known as clokep_work
16:16:03 <clokep_work> I agree. But someone needs to add it in. :)
16:20:38 <deOmega> hmm, i think  maybe what the post meant by header is...  is you try some of the themes that   offers the header option....  and you select header
16:20:55 <deOmega> case in point the header option for metalchat.. shows u an apple icon lol
16:21:34 <deOmega> yes i know that they have not been refined, bit just saying... this may be what he is referring to
16:22:03 <clokep_work> Perhaps.
16:38:26 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
16:41:37 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
16:45:21 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 440 filed by jahkae@gmail.com.
16:45:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=440 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, IRC option: Hide events
16:45:54 <deOmega> This is interesting:
16:47:46 <deOmega> I am trying to use IB for other IRC rooms... I have it set to  open multi userchats in new windows.. nice feature
16:48:36 <deOmega> what i just realized is that  when a new message comes in, it switches to the respective room
16:49:15 <clokep_work> Automatically?
16:49:25 <deOmega> yes
16:49:43 <deOmega> say something in  5 seconds
16:51:53 <clokep_work> Sorry.
16:51:59 <clokep_work> Moved away from the page. :)
16:52:37 <deOmega> no problem..  did not do it this time...  it did it when  Instantbot made that post
16:52:54 <clokep_work> Probably because he said deOmega 
16:53:23 <deOmega> she didn't
16:53:45 <deOmega> but if that is the case.. that IS neat
16:56:34 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird
17:00:24 <clokep_work> Yes. Would be.
17:08:35 <deOmega> man, the past  two weeks  or so has been the most enjoyable for me in a while.. i am also glad i was able to come into the room and chat with you guys.. truly a pleasure.. BUT
17:09:54 <deOmega> I have to get back into some stuff so   not gonna be able to visit as long or  get too involved for at least the next couple of  days
17:10:28 <clokep_work> Ah, it can be quite distracting. Why I ignore it sometimes. :)
17:10:35 <clokep_work> But good luck with what you're working on.
17:10:50 <deOmega> If opportunity presents itself, I will.. but again,  it was truly a joy.
17:11:14 <deOmega> I was in a different world that  felt GREAT :)
17:11:23 <deOmega> clokep_work: thank you
17:12:26 <clokep_work> You're welcome.
17:24:29 --> flo has joined #instantbird
17:24:29 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
17:32:18 <flo> the "header" mentioned in the blog comment was the "header" option of message themes.
17:33:08 <flo> deOmega: switching to a tab happens if you click on a notification (the popups that appear if someone talks to you when the window is not focused... and if you have enabled the option)
17:36:02 <deOmega> I do not have popups enabled, and i did not click on anything,  was reading the information in the other room when it  switched... but then again, u never know with me :)
17:37:41 <flo> deOmega: "I was in a different world that  felt GREAT :)" :) I'd like a different world too for a few days ;)
17:39:20 <deOmega> flo: :-) 
17:40:41 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
17:48:22 <deOmega> I suggested to this smiley addon: http://3nvk.sl.pt,  that this  option would be nice:  click icon -->Smiley list appears --->select smiley ---> Smiley list disappears. 
17:48:49 <deOmega> ha!  sorry about the shortened link 
17:49:12 <deOmega> so my final question for understanding is this
17:49:19 <clokep_work> There's an extra comma in it. :P
17:49:54 <clokep_work> Yeah, it would be nice to have it as a "drop down" type list.
17:50:37 <deOmega> he indicated that  we as users of .. say hybrid messengers like IB
17:51:09 <deOmega> won't't be able to see all of the  smileys we send, but  users of the  indicated messengers would  see them just fine
17:51:21 <deOmega> so my  question is.. i notice a lot of smiley addons 
17:51:39 <deOmega> are those to be used to  facilitate this viewing using?
17:53:03 <deOmega> if so.. that may be applied to..  Why am i not seeing teh smileys on my end :)
17:53:40 <deOmega> that is all i have and i hope i have helped somehow... will wait just in case there is an answer before i leave
18:07:31 <clokep_work> Sorry. Im not sure.
18:18:53 <deOmega> It is ok.    thanks.  Cath ch you guys later
18:19:29 <clokep_work> Bye.
18:19:31 <-- deOmega has left #instantbird ()
18:41:13 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird
18:43:44 --> Mic has joined #instantbird
18:43:56 <Mic> good evening
18:44:29 <clokep_work> Hi Mic.
18:46:04 <Mic> I won't say which account manager looks less packed in my eyes on the blog posting :P
19:03:17 <clokep_work> Mic: Well the account manager is simplified and more usable in a small window...its not necessarily less packed. ;)
19:03:37 <Mic> Define more usuable ;)
19:03:48 <clokep_work> Haha. :)
19:06:29 <Mic> I'm not sure if the "sign-on at startup" option is important enough to be on such a place
19:07:28 <clokep_work> I actually change that option quite often depending on my location.
19:08:15 <Mic> sorry to say that but flo considered the "Properties"  more important than the connect button for a while ;)
19:08:41 <Mic> So there was a time when the Properties button was the default button on accounts
19:09:09 <clokep_work> Ouch.
19:09:25 <Mic> Changing setting depending on the location is a good idea though
19:09:33 * skeledrew is now known as skeledrew|work
19:11:32 <skeledrew|work> i have IB on my thub drive and my system both setup as portables. my issue is how to properly syncronize the logs since they already have individual profile settings...
19:11:37 <skeledrew|work> *thumb
19:12:09 <Mic> Get Instantbird Sync ;)
19:12:15 <skeledrew|work> ?
19:12:21 <skeledrew|work> there's such a thing?
19:12:26 <clokep_work> Speaking of which I have a beef with the logs...
19:12:34 <skeledrew|work> lol
19:12:35 <clokep_work> I have 70 MB of logs in my profile, 100 Mb on disk.
19:12:36 <clokep_work> Not a big deal.
19:12:54 <clokep_work> But if I 7z them. Its 6 MB.
19:13:07 <clokep_work> And it takes liek 15 minutes to back up. If I don't back up the logs it takes like 15 seconds.
19:13:34 <Mic> clokep_work: go to the folder properties dialog and check the "size on disk"
19:13:47 <Mic> Make sure you have a seat first ;)
19:13:49 <clokep_work> 100 MB is the size on disk.
19:13:55 <clokep_work> I already said that. :P
19:14:10 <Mic> sorry
19:14:34 <clokep_work> Nah its fine. I was surprised they were so close actually.
19:14:57 <skeledrew|work> so what's the issue?
19:15:14 <clokep_work> They're plaintext and can be really compressed.
19:15:28 <clokep_work> But the bigger issue is that all the small files take a long time for the filesystem to go through/copy. Which is frustrating.
19:15:52 <Mic> For me the ratio is 1/10 :(
19:16:01 <skeledrew|work> since my IB is in PAc format (and i have the platform), it takes care of all that for me :)
19:16:07 <Mic> 16,3 MB filesize, 162MB on disk
19:16:55 <skeledrew|work> Mic: i don't see any IB Sync :(
19:17:20 <Mic> ah, I ws kiddin'; sorry, I thought that was obvious
19:17:25 <skeledrew|work> ...
19:17:31 <skeledrew|work> *sighs*
19:17:40 <skeledrew|work> hopes went up for nothing :(
19:18:04 <skeledrew|work> i have a file manager that does syncing
19:18:20 <clokep_work> I just back up to a server. :P
19:18:53 <skeledrew|work> but since i will have both instances running at once sometimes, the logs overlap...
19:20:44 <clokep_work> That'll be an issue no matter how logs are stored most likely.
19:23:32 <skeledrew|work> yeah. i need a way to determine logs that are overlapped by another even partially, and merge them if one isn't a subset of the other
19:23:58 <skeledrew|work> if it's a subset, the smaller would be discarded\
19:24:07 <clokep_work> That's a pain.
19:24:26 <skeledrew|work> a big one...
19:29:37 <clokep_work> Why do you have two instances running?
19:30:14 <skeledrew|work> i leave the instance at home running when i go out
19:30:47 <skeledrew|work> and i also login at work, so if the home system didn't go to sleep before...
19:34:14 --> hicham has joined #instantbird
19:34:57 <Mic> I'd prefer a layout like this: https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Account_Manager_-_account_item_-_mockup.png
19:35:24 <Mic> The spacing is not so good here but I think you get the idea
19:44:30 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Ping timeout)
19:45:11 --> tymerkaev has joined #instantbird
19:45:46 <-- tymerkaev has quit (Client exited)
19:47:18 <clokep_work> skeledrew|work: Ah, I thought you ran off a thumbdrive....
19:47:44 <skeledrew|work> yep
19:48:20 <clokep_work> Mic: I think disconnect/connect & Sign-on at startup should be "near" each other.
19:49:04 <skeledrew|work> how can i quickly run something as admin from the run dialog on Vista?
19:49:58 <Mic> The icon, account name and connect button are the important bits of the UI here, they're placed so the user can read from left to right
19:50:03 <Mic> guided by the separator
19:51:23 <Mic> The lesser important parts are placed so the listitem looks a bit more balanced than before
19:51:41 <Mic> while still grouping the possible "actions" at one place
19:51:59 <Mic> (ie right hand side)
19:54:23 <Mic> Atm you have this very dense area at the left hand side which I don't like
19:54:44 <clokep_work> I agree.
20:14:54 * clokep_work is trying to make Excel do things its not supposed to.
20:15:02 <clokep_work> Very frustrating.
20:15:06 <clokep_work> But, not you're right Mic.
20:15:08 <clokep_work> Its a lot more balanced.
20:15:13 <clokep_work> I do very much like the separator.
20:19:15 <Mic> Unfortunately it's a problem to do such a layout
20:24:26 <Mic> good night
20:24:40 <flo> Mic: if you want to improve the layout around the account manager, get rid of the properties window ;)
20:25:14 <flo> it makes no sense to have the "sign on at startup" pref in the account manager, and everything else in a separate window
20:25:20 <Mic> I'll squeaze all options into the area below the separator then? :)
20:25:22 <flo> we already have a UI that expands itself
20:25:52 <flo> we should use it to make something consistent
20:25:57 <clokep_work> flo: But if it expands that much...you want to make sure you cn still click the other accounts.
20:26:19 <flo> when there are many options in that properties dialog and both vertical and horizontal scrollbars appear, it's awful
20:27:36 <flo> I don't know what your point was about moving the Connect/disconnect button
20:27:49 <flo> it's logical to put it as close as possible to the "connected for" or "disconnected" message
20:29:05 <flo> only unimportant things should be at the right, because it can be far away if you use a big size for that window, and it causes a lot of eye (and mouse!) movement
20:29:55 <flo> clokep_work: I'm not exactly sure of what you mean. There's a vertical scrollbar in that window, so if the other accounts are not visible, the user can scroll
20:30:15 <flo> and I hope we can reduce the number of options for each protocol, to keep only the ones that make some sense
20:30:17 <Mic> How do you get the big size? And why would someone want something like this?
20:30:55 <clokep_work> flo: I know you can always scroll, but if I just want to check something real quick. Not sure that's good. But I guess its not really a menu to go into often.
20:31:10 <clokep_work> But if, for example, I want to deselect auto connect on a bunch of accounts...
20:31:19 <flo> how is it slower than opening the current modal (ouch) dialog?
20:31:30 <clokep_work> You don't open the dialog, it has a checkbox right there.
20:31:57 <Mic> What I want to get at is: if it is large then because someone resized it
20:32:16 <Mic> So they chose to do so
20:32:34 <flo> maybe because the name of an account was very long, and cropped
20:32:51 <flo> and to avoid a cropped name the user increased significantly the size of the window
20:33:04 <flo> (we should really get rid of the resource part of XMPP ids in account names)
20:35:41 <flo> clokep_work: by the way, if there's a real use case that causes you to repeatedly change a setting on several accounts in a row, there's something that should be addressed.
20:35:41 <flo> Either by default or as an add-on, depending on how common this use case is.
20:35:42 <flo> It's not a problem caused by the layout of the account manager.
20:36:56 <flo> is it for example because you use some accounts when working and some when at home to talk to your friends, but you also sometimes work at home, and talk to your friends at work?
20:38:07 <clokep_work> flo: My use case is my ISP sucks and sometimes I don't have a lot of bandwidth and get dropped a lot. I want to only automatically connect 1 or two accounts then.
20:38:26 <clokep_work> But I don't know that till I try connection so it really shouldn't be changed.
20:38:50 <flo> I guess that's a bit specific :-S
20:38:56 <clokep_work> I wish the Connect/Disconnect button was Connect/Cancel/Disconnect though, that'd be helpful.
20:39:10 <flo> what would "cancel" do?
20:39:30 <clokep_work> While its trying to connect it would cancel.
20:39:33 <clokep_work> Instead of just being disabled.
20:39:44 <flo> that's currently the case
20:39:45 <clokep_work> (now you have to right click > Cancel)
20:39:58 <clokep_work> I don't think so...I'm pretty sure its disabled.
20:40:01 <flo> while it's trying to connect, you can click "Disconnect" and it stops the connection attempt
20:40:25 <flo> it's disabled for half a second to avoid screwing up people who double click on the button
20:41:09 <clokep_work> Ah I see.
20:41:24 <clokep_work> Maybe I didn't understand "Disconnect" means "Cancel" when not connected then. :)
20:41:25 <flo> my father does that :(
20:41:38 <clokep_work> Yes, my mom does that, especially on her laptop.
20:42:10 <flo> a click means "I wanna do this", a double click means "I really wanna do this" :-(
20:42:19 <flo> no way this could be 2 separate actions
20:43:18 <flo> maybe if should be labeled "Cancel" or "Stop"
20:43:38 <Mic> btw I uploaded another image on the wiki highlighting dead space in both cases
20:43:45 <clokep_work> Yeah, I think it shuld be "Cancel/Stop" and once its connected its Disconnected.
20:43:53 <flo> the "Cancel" thing you have in the context menu is to stop the reconnection attempts that occur after a connection failed with a non fatal error
20:43:57 <Mic> Maybe it helps to see why the current situation seems to unnatural to me
20:44:12 <clokep_work> Ah, but I'm talking about during a reconnection attempt.
20:44:19 <clokep_work> Sometimes its connects, then attemps to reconnect and just can't.
20:44:31 <clokep_work> I think the button says is disabled? Or IDK, I'll try it later. :)
20:45:25 <flo> Mic: you have a big account manager window ;)
20:45:48 <Mic> Now guess why :P
20:45:53 <flo> clokep_work: for your usecase, would it help to have a limit to the number of account that can attempt to connect at once?
20:46:08 <flo> Mic: the stupid facebook XMPP id?
20:46:36 <Mic> No, it's just too packed otherwise
20:47:15 <flo> I'm surprised you haven't said yet that the "New account" and "close" buttons are too packed with regard to the border of the window
20:47:31 <flo> (I do think their margins are wrong on Windows)
20:47:48 <Mic> There's plenty of space between them
20:48:23 <flo> between the bottom of the button and the top of the window border?
20:48:50 <Mic> horizontally
20:49:59 <clokep_work> flo: No, I don't think so. I have to go though. I'll eb back later.
20:50:04 <Mic> bye
20:50:14 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
20:55:09 <flo> Mic: I think you wanted to go about half an hour ago :-/. I hope we didn't keep you away from your dreams.
21:00:29 <Mic> bye
21:00:34 <flo> good night :)
21:00:46 <Mic> thanks, same to you
21:01:10 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2pre)
21:02:42 <flo> by the way, about the log synchronization discussion while I wasn't here:
21:02:42 <flo> Archiving correctly the logs (with a decent disk space usage) and syncing logs between several instances are really things we want to do and "get right" some day.
21:03:15 <skeledrew|work> GOOD
21:03:30 <skeledrew|work> oh my. that was loud...
21:03:49 <flo> those are hard though
21:04:08 <flo> it's almost impossible to get it perfectly
21:04:52 <skeledrew|work> i'd think it's just a matter of checking the first and last message time in each log, then merging/deleting based on the result
21:05:11 <skeledrew|work> for each instance IE
21:06:00 <flo> merging can be a nightmare.
21:06:01 <flo> For example in the situation of 2 instances connected to the same accounts, receiving different messages (either because the servers directs them to a computer or the other based on the availability/idleness or because of connectivity issues), with different timestamps (network lags, local clock flakiness)
21:07:28 <flo> if you merge tens of megabytes of logs, it's almost guaranteed that this crappy situation will occur.
21:10:29 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> FishFace, have you every checked out http://sturgeonface.com/
21:14:20 <skeledrew|work> flo: that'd def be a nightmare
21:15:51 <flo> skeledrew|work: add server bugs to the mix :)
21:16:11 <skeledrew|work> yeah
21:16:20 <flo> several times this week I've had some messages delayed on google talk until I disconnected an reconnect
21:16:28 <flo> then it would be delivered as offline message
21:16:29 <skeledrew|work> i guess there'd have to be various prefs for the merging
21:16:34 <flo> and arrive an hour later
21:16:38 <skeledrew|work> k
21:17:21 <flo> having prefs doesn't help much, we still need to find reasonable default values ;)
21:17:47 <flo> only a few geeks will play with advanced preferences related to parameters of the log merging algorithm :)
21:18:02 <skeledrew|work> *sighs*
21:18:02 <skeledrew|work> it sucks
21:18:21 <flo> definitely
21:18:36 <flo> we just need to figure out how it can suck as little as possible. And then be proud of it :).
21:18:37 <skeledrew|work> hmm
21:19:12 <skeledrew|work> maybe it can do some syncing based on the actual message content and not just the time
21:19:30 <flo> sure!
21:19:38 <skeledrew|work> it'd prob take a bit of heuristics though
21:19:41 <skeledrew|work> :)
21:20:13 <flo> another crappy situation: what if you have 2 conversations with the same person, in different tabs, on different protocols (or just different accounts)
21:20:30 <flo> and then you tell Instantbird it's the same contact (or meta-contact, call that whatever you want :))
21:20:38 <flo> are the 2 conversations becoming a single one?
21:21:15 <skeledrew|work> no way
21:21:22 <skeledrew|work> leave that one alone
21:21:35 <skeledrew|work> that'd be even worse than a nightmare
21:22:03 <flo> it's even more fun if you want to separate the 2 buddies a while after that :)
21:22:18 <flo> so I guess if we merge, we should do it "on display"
21:22:23 <flo> not in the way we store the data
21:23:20 <skeledrew|work> hmm
21:27:30 <flo> I think at some point I wanted to store the hostname in the log file :)
21:27:44 <flo> so that when moving logs around, we can check where they came from
21:28:19 <skeledrew|work> yeah
21:30:04 <skeledrew|work> i noticed something i still haven't figured about Pidgin's log names
21:30:04 <skeledrew|work> i was dual booting with Ubuntu, and i noticed the names in Ubuntu ended with EST, while those from Windows ended with DST. dunno if that's significant or not
21:30:36 <flo> probably just inconsistent
21:31:22 <skeledrew|work> k
21:31:34 <skeledrew|work> they merged ok though
21:32:27 <flo> the way pidgin create these file names is: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/log.c#928
21:33:14 <flo> well, they merged as in "you can put all the files in the same folder"
21:33:24 <flo> but you can have 2 instances of the same conversation
21:33:30 <skeledrew|work> yeah. that was my merge
21:33:41 <flo> you can do exactly the same with Instantbird ;)
21:34:20 <skeledrew|work> i figure
21:47:36 <skeledrew|work> is there a way to force a facebook contact to update it's alias? there's a contact in my list showing only ########@chat.facebook.com for a while now
21:55:52 <flo> I don't know
21:56:08 <flo> that may be a bug either in the facebook server or the libpurple xmpp plugin
21:58:12 <flo> good night
22:06:43 <-- DetroitLibertyPenguin has left #instantbird ()
22:23:26 <-- hicham has quit (Client exited)
22:38:55 --> hicham has joined #instantbird
23:07:21 <-- skeledrew|work has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2b2)